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Old November 2 2013, 07:01 PM   #211
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
The technology is still 100 years behind the Enterprise E. No matter how you cut it Lets see a 1985 frigate take on 1885 warship...that warship aint gonna touch the frigate nd the warship aint gonn know what it them.....hell a 1985 freighter would waste a 1885 warship...just ram the damn thing.
It's an unfair comparison, because real-life technology has advanced infinitely more in a hundred years than Star Trek's tech has in the 225 years of on-screen canon. The NX-01 went to warp 5, Voyager goes to warp 9.975. One has holodecks, the other hasn't. What else?
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Old November 2 2013, 11:27 PM   #212
Manticore
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
The technology is still 100 years behind the Enterprise E. No matter how you cut it Lets see a 1985 frigate take on 1885 warship...that warship aint gonna touch the frigate nd the warship aint gonn know what it them.....hell a 1985 freighter would waste a 1885 warship...just ram the damn thing.
It's an unfair comparison, because real-life technology has advanced infinitely more in a hundred years than Star Trek's tech has in the 225 years of on-screen canon. The NX-01 went to warp 5, Voyager goes to warp 9.975. One has holodecks, the other hasn't. What else?
Unless I'm misremembering the technological development, a warship from 1785 would do a pretty fair job trashing a warship from 1685 too.
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Old November 3 2013, 04:12 AM   #213
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

^Still more technological advancement happened in that time than in the entire Trekverse.
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Old November 3 2013, 04:14 AM   #214
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
It's an unfair comparison, because real-life technology has advanced infinitely more in a hundred years than Star Trek's tech has in the 225 years of on-screen canon. The NX-01 went to warp 5, Voyager goes to warp 9.975. One has holodecks, the other hasn't. What else?
Weren't those speeds representative of two different warp scales?
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Old November 3 2013, 05:44 AM   #215
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^Still more technological advancement happened in that time than in the entire Trekverse.
You're comparing real technological advances with the projections of unimaginative writers (who themselves are probably not familiar with the advances in technology over the last few centuries)?
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Old November 3 2013, 05:47 AM   #216
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^Still more technological advancement happened in that time than in the entire Trekverse.
You're comparing real technological advances with the projections of unimaginative writers (who themselves are probably not familiar with the advances in technology over the last few centuries)?
When pointing out that Trek ships from two eras may be a lot more competitive than real-life equivalents, that's exactly what I'm doing.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:19 AM   #217
NeedleOfInquiry
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Manticore wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
The technology is still 100 years behind the Enterprise E. No matter how you cut it Lets see a 1985 frigate take on 1885 warship...that warship aint gonna touch the frigate nd the warship aint gonn know what it them.....hell a 1985 freighter would waste a 1885 warship...just ram the damn thing.
It's an unfair comparison, because real-life technology has advanced infinitely more in a hundred years than Star Trek's tech has in the 225 years of on-screen canon. The NX-01 went to warp 5, Voyager goes to warp 9.975. One has holodecks, the other hasn't. What else?
Unless I'm misremembering the technological development, a warship from 1785 would do a pretty fair job trashing a warship from 1685 too.
A ship of the line from 1685 could certainly defeat a frigate from 1785.
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Old November 9 2013, 07:08 PM   #218
publiusr
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Captain Jed R. wrote: View Post


Here's a diagram a fan must have done (found it online, uncertain of exact providence before I stored it on my photobucket): it shows Kelvin and other Abrams ships alongside "Prime" 23rd Century designs.



Now this:


I thought the Kelvin was inspired by the look of Soviet submarines...
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Old November 12 2013, 03:29 AM   #219
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Sorry to bump this and go back a bit, but...
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Take a look at this, the Baton Rouge class from the 1980 Star Trek Spaceflight Chonology book (and appearing in several comics and novels of the era - in one case the USS Saladin of that class was James Kirk's command prior to the Enterprise). That is why the Kelvin looks 100% like a pre-TOS ship to me - they could be sister ships, easy.
...I finally got a look at the recent book Federation: The First 150 Years and the author David Goodman actually named the Baton Rogue class as a sister ship to the Einstein class (Kelvin type) in the 2230's! Captain April served aboard both types of ships before taking command of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701 in 2245.

It's cool when the pros come to the same conclusions as... well... me
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Old November 17 2013, 09:01 PM   #220
Mycroft Maxwell
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

But some technological progression happens. The Mirror Universe, the NX-class are practically warships. The Uss Defiant (Constitution class) from the Prime universe, Ahhinilated every warship that opposed it. And the Defiant was an explorer, not centered on battle.
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Old November 21 2013, 02:20 PM   #221
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
But some technological progression happens. The Mirror Universe, the NX-class are practically warships. The Uss Defiant (Constitution class) from the Prime universe, Ahhinilated every warship that opposed it. And the Defiant was an explorer, not centered on battle.
And that's what the story writers wanted to happen. Let's throw in a TOS ship back in time/another reality and see it tussle.

And in STiD, they wanted the Vengeance to be outright superior to anything the Federation had at the time, so much so it would put NuKirk into a situation where he felt powerless, one of the main themes of STiD is that Kirk wasnt ready for the chair, the Vengeance is another story device to demonstrate that.

The JJ era ships clearly look superior to the TOS counterparts, then throw in Khan's contributions, his intelligence levels and ability to learn and solve problems beyond a normal intelligent human could, then backed by a mandate to build a no compromise battle ship, there is a convincing case for the Vengeance to be that advanced and combat effective in 2259.
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Old November 21 2013, 02:53 PM   #222
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

anh165 wrote: View Post

And in STiD, they wanted the Vengeance to be outright superior to anything the Federation had at the time, so much so it would put NuKirk into a situation where he felt powerless, one of the main themes of STiD is that Kirk wasnt ready for the chair, the Vengeance is another story device to demonstrate that.

The JJ era ships clearly look superior to the TOS counterparts, then throw in Khan's contributions, his intelligence levels and ability to learn and solve problems beyond a normal intelligent human could, then backed by a mandate to build a no compromise battle ship, there is a convincing case for the Vengeance to be that advanced and combat effective in 2259.
"At the time" would sum up rather well how it would compare against the E-E. As for how well it stacks up against other Federation ships, the Enterprise is supposed to be the high bar by implication of being the "newest flagship" so... take that as you will. The JJ era ships are certainly all bigger than their counterparts.... but that doesn't mean better necessarily.

I do think you're wrong about the Khan being so super smart that he contributed to it. Take say.... Napoleon and move him ahead to World War 2 and drop him there... he's not going to be that successful... there were SO many new military concepts by that time, air power, armor, logistics were not only completely different but played a different role, military doctrine had changed. Everything he was a genius at would've been outdated. Not to mention that being an effective political/military leader as Khan seemed to have been.... has absolutely nothing to do with military design past or future. Bringing in Bonaparte to design a new tank in that scenario I laid out would be silly at best no matter how smart he is.
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Old November 22 2013, 12:55 PM   #223
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I never got the sense that nuKhan contributed to the technology per se, but more that his "savagery" allowed him to think of concepts and tactics that the more pacifistic 23rd century humans would never even consider.


Back to the topic of the thread... the different iterations of Trek have always been inconsistent. Based on on-screen evidence, the original TOS Enterprise seems substantially more powerful than the ships from the TNG-era or JJ-era. It only took a couple of phaser shots to kill everyone on Excalibur in "The Ultimate Computer" or completely obliterate a Klingon cruiser in "Day of the Dove".
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Old November 22 2013, 02:44 PM   #224
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

drt wrote: View Post
Back to the topic of the thread... the different iterations of Trek have always been inconsistent. Based on on-screen evidence, the original TOS Enterprise seems substantially more powerful than the ships from the TNG-era or JJ-era. It only took a couple of phaser shots to kill everyone on Excalibur in "The Ultimate Computer" or completely obliterate a Klingon cruiser in "Day of the Dove".
I've often thought this as well. I first noticed it in TWOK (Weapons were not used on other ships in TMP). Phasers and Photon Torpedoes seemed super weak when compared to TOS levels. Even against unshielded ships.

I've discussed this on other forums and others pointed out to me that it probably wasn't that the weapons were weaker, but the ships, shields, SIF and the hulls were much stronger on the newer ships and could take more punishment. I like this explanation much better and it makes more sense logically.
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Old November 22 2013, 03:30 PM   #225
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Enterprise-A got pounded by a volley of photon torpedoes from a Bird of Prey trying to destroy her an kill everyone onboard. It survived almost completely intact and only retired because the script called for it.

Oddly enough, Excelsior on full shields, took one hit and was sent spinning slightly and felt far more impact, because she wasn't the Enterprise clearly.

The 1701 refit took a direct photon hit to the saucer section early in TWoK, it messed up their computer systems, shot a few sparks but no mark was left on the hull, their shields were right down.

In the Nu-verse, an older style ship slightly newer than the Kelvin could take out unshielded D-7's with one photon each, no matter where it hit.

At 6%, the Nu-Prises's shields were not stopping the torpedoes from ripping chuncks out of her thickest plated areas, opening up several decks at a time.

Obviously, photon strength is more consistant with TOS, where they were treated as last resort WMD's.
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