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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 2 2013, 11:51 PM   #16
Nebusj
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
There's just so much inherent weirdness in this episode, it begs questions. From the time travel of perhaps billions (just how long would that have taken, anyway? And apparently there's only one portal?!), to the Atoz replicas (who perform the "simple tasks"). Has Atoz been doing this since childhood?
The population's unspecified. There are some simple estimates that can be made, though; for example, that at the rate of one person a second (and without a break) it would take about 33 years to process a billion people. Presumably processing takes some time, but assuming the atavachron itself to be the bottleneck then that only needs a moment for each person. The selection of times and the preparation of bodies can be done in separate processes.

It's not specified how many atavachrons there are; it would seem peculiar if there were just the one. Atoz does swear that he's seen to the safety of everyone on the planet, but that's in the context of trying to assure what he thinks are insanely reluctant stragglers that they need to get to safety.

The New York City subway system is able to handle over a billion riders per year (in 2005 it came up just short of 1.5 billion); those are, obviously, mostly duplicates, but it suggests that a modestly-sized system could clear out a planet of ten billion people in under a decade of serious work.


And he also says that "he thought everyone had long since gone", so why is he still there? And Maurice is right when he asks why Atoz would wait until the very end to go himself, according to my theory. Unless deep down he hates his wife and family or something.
To catch stragglers, of course. That seems sufficient reason. If waiting a month (or whatnot) past the ``drop dead'' date saves a dozen more souls it doesn't require an extraordinary devotion to duty to wait at his post, especially when he has no reason to think he won't have the rest of his family's life to enjoy when he's done.


Then there's Zor Kahn, the tyrant of whom Spock "learned about from reading library records" when he did no such thing.
Specifically, Spock says, ``I remember that name from the history tapes in the library''. He was looking at some of the discs; that's how the atavachron had anywhere particular to send him. That he encountered the name Zor Kahn while looking at a disc of someone who was punished by Zor Kahn is not an improbable bit of business.

And why send Zarabeth back in time as punishment for "choosing her kinsman unwisely". Who hasn't done that at one time or another? Her crime is vague and seemingly minor, yet here she is painted as a kind of female Lokai or something. never diid get that.
Zarabeth claims that Zor Kahn did not want it said he had her killed. Why this should be an important point to Zor Kahn is unclear, but then, we do not know Zor Kahn's precise personality, nor the circumstances of Zarabeth's family attempting to kill him, nor what political pressures were on Kahn or were protecting Zarabeth. It's hardly unknown for a leader to look for a humane, or a method that can be called humane, way of ridding himself of a troublesome person or a party that could be rallied around.
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Old November 3 2013, 12:42 AM   #17
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Corylea wrote: View Post
so we know that he has some telepathic awareness of other Vulcans at a distance under some circumstances.
Here's a fascinating thought: What if the seed of change in Vulcan history was due to all those other Vulcans picking up on Spock?

"I feel a disturbance in the Force."
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Old November 3 2013, 01:10 AM   #18
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Nebusj wrote: View Post
To catch stragglers, of course. That seems sufficient reason. If waiting a month (or whatnot) past the ``drop dead'' date saves a dozen more souls it doesn't require an extraordinary devotion to duty to wait at his post, especially when he has no reason to think he won't have the rest of his family's life to enjoy when he's done.
Hmm, seems Atoz' dedication is the only part of my theory that holds up!


Nebusj wrote: View Post
Zarabeth claims that Zor Kahn did not want it said he had her killed. Why this should be an important point to Zor Kahn is unclear, but then, we do not know Zor Kahn's precise personality, nor the circumstances of Zarabeth's family attempting to kill him, nor what political pressures were on Kahn or were protecting Zarabeth. It's hardly unknown for a leader to look for a humane, or a method that can be called humane, way of ridding himself of a troublesome person or a party that could be rallied around.
I see what you're saying: so that he wouldn't create a martyr.

Your point about Spock looking at the tapes escaped me. One thing I must do in the future is watch the episodes to verify details like that. In this case, I mostly listened to it. You'd think that after forty years such details would be burned into my retinas, but apparently not!

Metryq wrote: View Post
Corylea wrote: View Post
so we know that he has some telepathic awareness of other Vulcans at a distance under some circumstances.
Here's a fascinating thought: What if the seed of change in Vulcan history was due to all those other Vulcans picking up on Spock?
Wow..intriguing!
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Old November 3 2013, 01:56 AM   #19
Corylea
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
Corylea wrote: View Post
so we know that he has some telepathic awareness of other Vulcans at a distance under some circumstances.
Here's a fascinating thought: What if the seed of change in Vulcan history was due to all those other Vulcans picking up on Spock?
Wow. That's quite an idea!

I guess it would depend on how many Vulcans there were 5000 years ago. I wouldn't think that a single mind would have much impact if there were millions or hundreds of thousands or even just thousands of Vulcans. It seems as if there'd have to be quite a small number of living Vulcans for a single mind -- even Spock's magnificent mind -- to make that much difference.

And of course, there's the whole but-that-would-be-circular argument.

In spite of the fact that it seems unlikely to me, it's a really cool idea, though! Thanks for suggesting it.
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Old November 3 2013, 02:45 AM   #20
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Corylea wrote: View Post
I wouldn't think that a single mind would have much impact if there were millions or hundreds of thousands or even just thousands of Vulcans.
From "Mirror, Mirror":

SPOCK: One man cannot summon the future.
KIRK: But one man can change the present.

Perhaps those thousands or millions of Vulcans felt a brief moment of clarity, standing up out of their bathtubs and shouting, "Eureka" (which in Vulcan means "This bath water is too hot!") After that, they directed their energies towards finding out what had triggered it in everyone.

I'm not suggesting the change happened instantly. Who knows how long it took the Vulcans to establish their philosophy of total logic? And we don't know how long they'd been practicing it when TOS rolled around.

And of course, there's the whole but-that-would-be-circular argument.
Reflexive causality is perfectly legit. The Enterprise was part of the history they were sent to observe in "Assignment Earth."

I've thought that a neat twist to the last BACK TO THE FUTURE movie would have been to take 1955 Doc back to 1885 to rescue 1985 Doc. (Which would be a pair 'o' Docs.) After the mission was over, they'd return 1955 Doc, first, but accidentally arrive a week too early at Doc's favorite red letter date in the history of science. The "BOOM" of the Outatime arriving would startle Doc, who was inside the house standing on a toilet while hanging a clock... (They'd realize they were too early and jump forward a week to drop off 1955 Doc.)
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Old November 3 2013, 03:04 AM   #21
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Then there's Zor Kahn, the tyrant of whom Spock "learned about from reading library records" when he did no such thing. And why send Zarabeth back in time as punishment for "choosing her kinsman unwisely". Who hasn't done that at one time or another? Her crime is vague and seemingly minor, yet here she is painted as a kind of female Lokai or something. never diid get that.
I think she's trying to make a joke. Very few of us get to choose our relatives.

SPOCK: . . .Zarabeth, you said that you were brought here as a prisoner. May I ask--
ZARABETH: Why? My crime was in choosing my kinsmen unwisely. Two of them were involved in a conspiracy to kill Zor Kahn.
SPOCK: I remember that name from the history tapes in the library. Zor Kahn the Tyrant.
ZARABETH: It was not enough that he execute my kinsmen. Zor Kahn determined to destroy our entire family. He used the atavachron to send us places no one could ever find us.
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Old November 3 2013, 03:19 AM   #22
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Exactly. The bit with Zarabeth is perfectly clear. She's being bitterly wry when she comments that her only crime was "choosing" her kinsmen unwisely. She didn't choose them at all or commit any crime herself. She just had the bad luck to belong to a family that was purged by a sadistic dictator. We can speculate as to exactly why he didn't just have her killed, but it seems it would have been bad public relations for some reason. Maybe she was popular with the masses? Or had influential friends at court?

In any event, a entire family being punished for the crimes of a few members is hardly unprecedented, particularly if there was some sort of attempted coup or assassination involved. Zor Khan may have wanted to avoid the assassin's relatives seeking revenge--or becoming a rallying point for other rebels or dissidents.

(Remember how Corazon Aquino became a symbol of resistance in the Philippines after Marcos allegedly had her husband killed?)
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Old November 3 2013, 11:57 AM   #23
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
"I feel a disturbance in the Force."
I don't know what made me write that, but it was probably when Darth Vader of Vulcan visited George McFly.

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Old November 3 2013, 12:11 PM   #24
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
We can speculate as to exactly why he didn't just have her killed, but it seems it would have been bad public relations for some reason.
Considering what a hottie Zarabeth is, maybe her original punishment was to become a palace slave. Maybe the guilty family members were also palace slaves, placed right where they could see her humiliation for something they had done. Then Zarabeth refused to "cooperate" and told His Heinous to go pound sand.

No witnesses to Zor Kahn's embarrassment could be allowed to live. Then His Nastiness's ego kicked in and gave him the fiendish idea to use the atavachron. If He was not good enough for her, then He'd banish her to a cold and desolate world to live out her life in utter loneliness.

(Incidentally, this whole scenario means the Sarpeidons probably had the atavachron long before they knew their sun would go nova.)
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Old November 3 2013, 12:47 PM   #25
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

I must've been on a bathroom break during Zarabeth's conversation about Zor Kahn. Now I see what you guys are saying.

And yeah, Metryq, the atavachron could've been around for a long time. Heck, who is to say Zarabeth didn't come from a time hundreds of years prior to Kirk and company showing up? But, no...I think she mentioned Mr. Atoz..then again, this is the same universe where Bele was chasing Lokai for 50,000 years, so who knows!
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Old November 3 2013, 01:31 PM   #26
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I think she mentioned Mr. Atoz..
I'd have to watch the episode again, but I don't think Zarabeth ever once mentioned Atoz. (Spock uses the name in front of Zarabeth, though.) Besides, Atoz told Kirk they did not have much on recent history, "There was no demand for it."

Maybe the recent history, aside from being a poor destination for escaping the nova, was also the time of Zor Khan. What's "recent"? Maybe a generation or two? The lack of "recent" history may also be a technical limitation of the atavachron. Maybe it can bend time only so much, as "recent" history is below its horizon, so to speak, like the aim on a gun turret.

By the way, how did the Sarpeidons know their sun was going to go nova? They obviously have a time machine, but no spaceflight. So maybe someone stepped through into the future and got fried. We can only hope it was Zor Kahn.
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Old November 3 2013, 03:59 PM   #27
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

My impression is that time-travel had been around long before it was used to escape the supernova. In the past, it was used by the likes of Zhor Khan to banish political rivals and enemies, but it was only recently that it had been put to the purpose of escaping the disaster. I always assumed the era of Zhor Khan was long before the era of Atoz. Certainly, Zarabeth never mentions Atoz . . . .

And, yeah, the way she talks, it does sound like she might have had some sort of personal connection to Zhor Khan, which may explain why he went to the trouble of arranging such a uniquely cruel exile for her. I can't remember the exact words, but she says something like "He had an inventive mind, that one?"

(This is the part where I hint that Sarpeidon plays an important part in my upcoming Trek novel, No Time Like the Past . . . .)
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Old November 3 2013, 07:08 PM   #28
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
. . . And, yeah, the way she talks, it does sound like she might have had some sort of personal connection to Zhor Khan, which may explain why he went to the trouble of arranging such a uniquely cruel exile for her. I can't remember the exact words, but she says something like "He had an inventive mind, that one?"
Her exact line is:
He gave me weapons, a shelter, food. Everything I needed to live except companionship. He did not want it said that he had me killed. But to send me here alone, if that is not death, what is? A very inventive mind, that man.
What I want to know is, if Zarabeth was exiled to live out the rest of her life alone in a frozen wasteland, why does she dress like a sexy jungle girl?

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Old November 3 2013, 07:19 PM   #29
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
What I want to know is, if Zarabeth was exiled to live out the rest of her life alone in a frozen wasteland, why does she dress like a sexy jungle girl?
That's the "Theiss titillation theory" at work.
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Old November 3 2013, 07:26 PM   #30
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
So maybe someone stepped through into the future and got fried. We can only hope it was Zor Kahn.
Agreed. One less tyrant on any world is a good thing.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
(This is the part where I hint that Sarpeidon plays an important part in my upcoming Trek novel, No Time Like the Past . . . .)
Nice! It's so good to see these stories "live on". I guess they really are part of our modern mythology!

Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
What I want to know is, if Zarabeth was exiled to live out the rest of her life alone in a frozen wasteland, why does she dress like a sexy jungle girl?
Aside from Melakon's quite right guess, it could also be related to Spock's comment that the cave was "agreeably warm". That could be Vulcan lingo for "Man, it's hot as hell in here!"
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