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Old October 31 2013, 10:14 PM   #16
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Use of Time wrote: View Post
I don't think the high value prospects are going to spend that much time in the minors compared to the days of old. The Harper's and Strasburg's of the world will play enough minor league baseball to learn the team system and get plugged in quickly as long as there is room.
Yeah, but guys like Harper, Strasburg and Mike Trout are generational talents. They are hardly the norm.

Triple A is no longer the proving ground for the high end draft picks. Triple A is pretty much a holding pen for veteren players trying to make one last run and those back end prospects that will most likely scrap away for the remainder of their careers hoping to join the parent team as a fill in for an injured player or as a late season roster addition. A good season in Double A can pretty much get you that spring training invitation and eventually a roster spot.
This is silly. Just taking the Cubs as an example, you only need to look at Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Josh Vitters and Hee Seop Choi and now Starlin Castro to see players whose careers were ruined due to inadequate time in the minor leagues. A player doesn't get drafted and magically learn everything they need to know at AA, where the competition is laughable and many of the stadiums are launching pads. AAA is far from a place for veterans and scrappers -- it's probably the most important part of a player's development, because it's the closest he gets to major-league pitching / batting without actually getting thrown to the wolves.
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Old October 31 2013, 11:50 PM   #17
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=435511

The Jays hire Kevin Seitzer as hitting coach. Like many Jays fans, it's wake me up when they fire Gibbons.
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Old November 1 2013, 01:16 AM   #18
Use of Time
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
I don't think the high value prospects are going to spend that much time in the minors compared to the days of old. The Harper's and Strasburg's of the world will play enough minor league baseball to learn the team system and get plugged in quickly as long as there is room.
Yeah, but guys like Harper, Strasburg and Mike Trout are generational talents. They are hardly the norm.

Triple A is no longer the proving ground for the high end draft picks. Triple A is pretty much a holding pen for veteren players trying to make one last run and those back end prospects that will most likely scrap away for the remainder of their careers hoping to join the parent team as a fill in for an injured player or as a late season roster addition. A good season in Double A can pretty much get you that spring training invitation and eventually a roster spot.
This is silly. Just taking the Cubs as an example, you only need to look at Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Josh Vitters and Hee Seop Choi and now Starlin Castro to see players whose careers were ruined due to inadequate time in the minor leagues. A player doesn't get drafted and magically learn everything they need to know at AA, where the competition is laughable and many of the stadiums are launching pads. AAA is far from a place for veterans and scrappers -- it's probably the most important part of a player's development, because it's the closest he gets to major-league pitching / batting without actually getting thrown to the wolves.
Brian McCann saw 9 at bats at triple A before joining the Braves. It happens all the time. It is team dependent but a lot of players will only play one season at triple if that. Many get a September call up. I'm not talking about the typical player, the whole conversation has been about top draft picks that can turn around a bad team. These top draft picks do not toil around in the minors for years on end as was suggested in this thread. Even a mediocre talent like Gordon Beckham only spent 28 at bats in Triple A. It isn't as uncommon as you think for 1st rounders to get a full season at double A with a cup of coffee at triple A before being plugged in. Obviously teams that are in contention can cause players to remain in triple A for a little bit longer, especially if there is an established player holding their position at the major league level.
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Old November 1 2013, 01:23 AM   #19
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ I do care, actually. People actually have to watch those Fox broadcasts!

Strangely enough, I'm hoping for Bobby V. As shitty as he was last year as Sox manager, he's not half bad as a broadcaster.
I get the feeling they might be replacing him with Eric Karros. They've been really pushing him on the Saturday baseball telecasts and I don't think it will be a big surprise or anything major.

In somewhat Giants news, the Nationals signed Matt Williams to be the new manager. Good for him. I remember watching him at 3rd base in the 90s and he was a hell of a hitter. I hope he does well in Washington.
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Old November 1 2013, 01:54 AM   #20
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Use of Time wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about the typical player, the whole conversation has been about top draft picks that can turn around a bad team. These top draft picks do not toil around in the minors for years on end as was suggested in this thread.
The problem is that those top draft picks who can turn around a bad team are very, very rare, and as a result this is a meaningless discussion. For every Mike Trout (who still can't turn the Angels around on his own, despite his only real statistical comparison in his first two seasons being Mickey fucking Mantle), there are a hundred Mark Priors, Matt Andersons and Matt Bushes. Any team that drafts hoping to luck into a generational talent is foolish -- and it certainly isn't the way Tampa Bay, for example, righted the ship (same with Oakland).
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Old November 1 2013, 02:08 AM   #21
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

But Gordon Beckham and Brian McCann are not even remotely close to a Mike Trout and a Bryce Harper and they were escorted quickly through the minors to the major leagues. Hell even a team like St. Louis who was in the fucking World Series was using guys like Joe Kelly and Michael Wacha who have less then 30 Triple A games between the two of them. Also, guys like Kolton Wong, Matt Adams and Matt Carpenter only spent one year in triple A before joining the Cardinals in a competitive capacity. I'm sorry but you will never convince me that top prospects need to face two to three years of Triple A pitching before they are ready. Guys are getting fast tracked to the big leagues and are making an impact immediately upon their arrival.

I'm sorry but you are making my point for me but by all means lets use Tampa as an example. Tampa's star players played the following amount of triple A games

Evan Longoria had only 129 at bats before getting called up.
Matt Moore played in only 9 games at Triple A
David Price played in only 4 games.

I'll cap this off by using an example from my own favorite team. Jason Heyward had only 9 at bats in triple A before becoming a full time player posting an OPS of .849 in his first year.
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Old November 1 2013, 12:13 PM   #22
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

In that 8-9 years of suck, they also drafted:

Josh Hamilton
BJ Upton
Rocco Baldelli
Delmon Young
Jeff Neimann
Evan Longoria
David Price

There's others, and these were just first round picks, but plenty of these guys either helped out or were traded for parts that did. Not all generational talents.

And yes, it's the biggest crapshoot of all the major sports, but even if not every pick is a Harper, you can still get some pretty good picks.

Here's the #1 overall pick by year. Some flameouts, but most of these were at least decent players, and a few HOF guys in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ll_draft_picks

That's just #1, not to say the #2 guy wasn't even better, or there wasn't a HOF player in the 40th round, just pointing out that if you're going to be bad, might as well suck. Otherwise, you're like the Mets, and stuck in the mediocrity hell. Not going anywhere, spending lots of money, but drafting low enough to not snag the top talent there either.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:47 PM   #23
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Scout101 wrote: View Post
In that 8-9 years of suck, they also drafted:

Josh Hamilton
BJ Upton
Rocco Baldelli
Delmon Young
Jeff Neimann
Evan Longoria
David Price

There's others, and these were just first round picks, but plenty of these guys either helped out or were traded for parts that did. Not all generational talents.

And yes, it's the biggest crapshoot of all the major sports, but even if not every pick is a Harper, you can still get some pretty good picks.

Here's the #1 overall pick by year. Some flameouts, but most of these were at least decent players, and a few HOF guys in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ll_draft_picks

That's just #1, not to say the #2 guy wasn't even better, or there wasn't a HOF player in the 40th round, just pointing out that if you're going to be bad, might as well suck. Otherwise, you're like the Mets, and stuck in the mediocrity hell. Not going anywhere, spending lots of money, but drafting low enough to not snag the top talent there either.
Exactly. By the way that list is interesting. Some of those names are eyebrow raising. Kris Benson was a number 1 draft pick? Jesus.
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Old November 1 2013, 06:48 PM   #24
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I'm just hoping the Twins avoid another 90+ loss season. I used to have a lot of hope at the start of every season, but the Twins' farm system isn't what it used to be.
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Old November 1 2013, 08:08 PM   #25
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I didn't remember Shawon Dunston being a #1 pick for the Cubs.

If nothing else, that crazy cannon arm of his made Mark Grace a great first baseman.
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Old November 1 2013, 08:16 PM   #26
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Use of Time wrote: View Post
I'm sorry but you will never convince me that top prospects need to face two to three years of Triple A pitching before they are ready.
I was never talking about top prospects, which is the point you seem to be missing. You called AAA the place where veterans and fringe young players go to maybe get called up at some point, which is patently untrue. You're bringing up names like Longoria and Heyward, who clearly didn't need that time in the minors, but they are exceptions to the rule. There is a huge gap between "guys who are really, really good right off the bat" and "guys who will be lucky to see a major-league bench." Just because a few dudes rip up AA and show surprising aptitude at the major league level right away doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't is bordering on the scrap heap.
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Old November 1 2013, 09:19 PM   #27
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

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Use of Time wrote: View Post
I'm sorry but you will never convince me that top prospects need to face two to three years of Triple A pitching before they are ready.
I was never talking about top prospects, which is the point you seem to be missing. You called AAA the place where veterans and fringe young players go to maybe get called up at some point, which is patently untrue. You're bringing up names like Longoria and Heyward, who clearly didn't need that time in the minors, but they are exceptions to the rule. There is a huge gap between "guys who are really, really good right off the bat" and "guys who will be lucky to see a major-league bench." Just because a few dudes rip up AA and show surprising aptitude at the major league level right away doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't is bordering on the scrap heap.
Read my first post on this topic. My focus this entire conversation has been about top prospects. You are the one that condescendingly jumped in to call my input "silly" and a "meaningless conversation." I have given you several examples of teams that have multiple players that get fast tracked to the show, most of which aren't even the generational talents you are talking about. You keep saying these players that have a cup of coffee in triple A and go right into the show are these "franchise player" type prospects that are so rare but I just gave you a team with 5 players that did it. (Cardinals)

Had they been waiting on Wacha and Kelly to spend one more year in Memphis mowing down the Buffalo Bison they wouldn't have competed for a title this year. They aren't the only ones escorting top talent to the bigs either. Look, I gave you so many examples last night of players that are doing this and they are hardly on the level of Harper, Trout, and Strasburg. Go watch a Triple A game in July and tell me that I'm wrong. The lineups are filled with guys going nowhere and some older familiar faces hoping to get another shot. I watched the Norfolk Tides throughout the summer and the lineups that came through there were hilarious at times. You may get to see a superstar for a couple of months or maybe even a year but that is about it. If they can play, they will get called up.

Obviously not every prospect in the farm system is going to get it quickly but just about every team has about three or four players that are going to get plugged in early and most likely make an impact. That is all I'm saying. The whole point is that Scout had it right when talking about the Rays path to success stemming in part from a decade of failure.

As plugged into the game as you are I can't believe you are arguing with me on this. It's possible we are just missing each other here.
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Old November 1 2013, 10:45 PM   #28
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Pegaritaville wrote: View Post
I'm just hoping the Twins avoid another 90+ loss season. I used to have a lot of hope at the start of every season, but the Twins' farm system isn't what it used to be.
How does Ron Gardenhire keep his job? From the outside looking in, it's like he had a decent team and couldn't do much with it and now is at the bottom of his division fairly consistently.
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Old November 2 2013, 04:00 AM   #29
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

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Pegaritaville wrote: View Post
I'm just hoping the Twins avoid another 90+ loss season. I used to have a lot of hope at the start of every season, but the Twins' farm system isn't what it used to be.
How does Ron Gardenhire keep his job? From the outside looking in, it's like he had a decent team and couldn't do much with it and now is at the bottom of his division fairly consistently.
I don't know about having decent talent. They just flat out couldn't pitch all year. They don't have any depth in the starting rotation. Gardenhire seemed to do a good job in years past when they had Liriano and Santana.
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Old November 2 2013, 08:09 PM   #30
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Danny99 wrote: View Post
Pegaritaville wrote: View Post
I'm just hoping the Twins avoid another 90+ loss season. I used to have a lot of hope at the start of every season, but the Twins' farm system isn't what it used to be.
How does Ron Gardenhire keep his job? From the outside looking in, it's like he had a decent team and couldn't do much with it and now is at the bottom of his division fairly consistently.
I don't know about having decent talent. They just flat out couldn't pitch all year. They don't have any depth in the starting rotation. Gardenhire seemed to do a good job in years past when they had Liriano and Santana.
Yep. Gardy's done pretty good when he's had some talent (most of which came up through the farm system), but it's been slim pickings for a while. Although a few years ago when the Twins upped the payroll quite a bit he didn't exactly shine so I'm not sure why he seems to get a pass when things go bad.

There's talk of the Twins expanding the payroll next year, so it'll be interesting to see if (a) they spend wisely and (b) Gardy can take advantage of that.
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