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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 1 2013, 05:34 PM   #46
Jeyl
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Sex is fun. And Prime Kirk is no different, despite fans' attempts to dispel that image. Look no further than "The Conscience of the King" where 34-year-old James T. Kirk beds the 19-year-old daughter of a mass murderer,
No he doesn't. He "courts" her, "kisses" her, but there is nothing to suggest that they actually "did it". Also, her name is Lenore.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
or "Requiem for Methuselah" where he gets uncomfortably grabby with an android, then petty and jealous about her, leading to her death.
One example of Kirk genuinely going after the girl, but it still doesn't lead to bedding.

Of course that still doesn't stop people from believing that Kirk is most famous for sleeping with Orion slave girls on the whim. Why else would they stick that very image in Trek09? Funny story. The only episode in the original series where Kirk meets an Orion girl, he doesn't sleep with her! In fact, when she puts the moves on Kirk, he actually resists.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:40 PM   #47
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

1960's TV didn't allow for even the suggestion of sex. Trek did everything it could to push that envelope, from costuming to leaving alluring and suggestive hints to hints of Kirk's past exploits. Heck, in "Wink of an Eye" they have a shot of Kirk sitting on his bunk pulling on his boots after a previous amorous kissing scene. I wonder what happened there?
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Old November 1 2013, 05:41 PM   #48
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Into Darkness is a much better written movie than Gravity. I expect that if Gravity is remembered at all it will be for the nice visuals and nothing more. And I was so excited for Gravity before I saw it.

I also don't think conference room scenes are necessarily bad for a trek movie. There's a lot of movies out there that do quite well with scenes that are just people talking. If they were that bad the ratings of the TV series wouldn't have been as good.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:44 PM   #49
F. King Daniel
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Sex is fun. And Prime Kirk is no different, despite fans' attempts to dispel that image. Look no further than "The Conscience of the King" where 34-year-old James T. Kirk beds the 19-year-old daughter of a mass murderer,
No he doesn't. He "courts" her, "kisses" her, but there is nothing to suggest that they actually "did it". Also, her name is Lenore.
By that logic, there's nothing to suggest Kirk had sex with the twins in ID - after all, we only saw them in bed together, in their underwear! We didn't even see them kiss!
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
or "Requiem for Methuselah" where he gets uncomfortably grabby with an android, then petty and jealous about her, leading to her death.
One example of Kirk genuinely going after the girl, but it still doesn't lead to bedding.

Of course that still doesn't stop people from believing that Kirk is most famous for sleeping with Orion slave girls on the whim. Why else would they stick that very image in Trek09? Funny story. The only episode in the original series where Kirk meets an Orion girl, he doesn't sleep with her! In fact, when she puts the moves on Kirk, he actually resists.
Then there are episodes like "The Gamesters of Triskelion" where Kirk teaches Shahna how to love...
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Old November 1 2013, 05:45 PM   #50
Jeyl
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
It does pay off all the way through the movie.
Where in the film does it establish that using Khan's blood to save Kirk was in violation of a Starfleet Directive? I don't think there was any.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:50 PM   #51
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It does pay off all the way through the movie.
Where in the film does it establish that using Khan's blood to save Kirk was in violation of a Starfleet Directive? I don't think there was any.
Just plain "wow".
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Old November 1 2013, 05:52 PM   #52
Jeyl
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
By that logic, there's nothing to suggest Kirk had sex with the twins in ID - after all, we only saw them in bed together, in their underwear! We didn't even see them kiss!
If you have any evidence from the episode that would clearly indicate that Lenore and Kirk had sex, I'll gladly take it into account. But since this is "hollywood", all characters can have sex in their underwear.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:52 PM   #53
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
By that logic, there's nothing to suggest Kirk had sex with the twins in ID - after all, we only saw them in bed together, in their underwear! We didn't even see them kiss!
If you have any evidence from the episode that would clearly indicate that Lenore and Kirk had sex, I'll gladly take it into account. But since this is "hollywood", all characters can have sex in their underwear.
Carol Marcus didn't.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:53 PM   #54
Jeyl
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It does pay off all the way through the movie.
Where in the film does it establish that using Khan's blood to save Kirk was in violation of a Starfleet Directive? I don't think there was any.
Just plain "wow".
All I'm saying is don't set something up if you're not going to have a pay off.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:55 PM   #55
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post

Where in the film does it establish that using Khan's blood to save Kirk was in violation of a Starfleet Directive? I don't think there was any.
Just plain "wow".
All I'm saying is don't set something up if you're not going to have a pay off.
There was a payoff: It is part of Spock's journey. It is used to make Spock understand how Kirk saw him, how important Kirk thought he was.

Have you even seen the movie?
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Old November 1 2013, 05:55 PM   #56
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post

Where in the film does it establish that using Khan's blood to save Kirk was in violation of a Starfleet Directive? I don't think there was any.
Ummm... what?
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Old November 1 2013, 06:10 PM   #57
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
There was a payoff: It is part of Spock's journey. It is used to make Spock understand how Kirk saw him, how important Kirk thought he was.
So all that stuff about Spock being genuinely emotional about those closest to him in the last movie was all a lie? Didn't the last movie establish to both the audience AND Kirk that Spock does indeed have emotions and he does understand the concept of wanting to protect those closest to him? It sounds like you're praising these writers for purposefully forgetting important character moments for the sake of recycling them. But that's not surprising since ID recycles a lot of the last movie anyways.
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Old November 1 2013, 06:10 PM   #58
Opus
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
There was a payoff: It is part of Spock's journey. It is used to make Spock understand how Kirk saw him, how important Kirk thought he was.
Kirk: I wanted you to know why I couldn't let you die. Why I went back for you. (referencing opening scene of the movie, and later scene before the command meeting)

Spock: Because you are my friend. (Aha! Spock finally gets it!)

<hands press against glass>

That's the payoff.

I simply don't understand how one could miss this.
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Old November 1 2013, 06:16 PM   #59
Opus
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
So all that stuff about Spock being genuinely emotional about those closest to him in the last movie was all a lie? Didn't the last movie establish to both the audience AND Kirk that Spock does indeed have emotions and he does understand the concept of wanting to protect those closest to him? It sounds like you're praising these writers for purposefully forgetting important character moments for the sake of recycling them. But that's not surprising since ID recycles a lot of the last movie anyways.
Way to move the goal post!

So the writers either didn't give a payoff on the Spock scene, or they rehashed it. Which one is it? And don't give the lame excuse of "Well, they did it already in the last movie so it's no payoff!" crap. That wasn't what you have been arguing. You said they didn't give a payoff to the "What would Spock have done in your place" line at the beginning of the movie.

Which one is it?
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Old November 1 2013, 06:18 PM   #60
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
There was a payoff: It is part of Spock's journey. It is used to make Spock understand how Kirk saw him, how important Kirk thought he was.
So all that stuff about Spock being genuinely emotional about those closest to him in the last movie was all a lie? Didn't the last movie establish to both the audience AND Kirk that Spock does indeed have emotions and he does understand the concept of wanting to protect those closest to him? It sounds like you're praising these writers for purposefully forgetting important character moments for the sake of recycling them. But that's not surprising since ID recycles a lot of the last movie anyways.
Keep moving those goal posts.

You said there was no payoff for a scene from the beginning of the film, I've countered that there is. That doesn't mean I'm praising the writers for it, it means that there is a payoff to the scene from the beginning of the film.

Whether you like the payoff or think it's similar to something that happened in a prior film really has nothing to do with the conclusion you came too about the existence of a payoff.
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