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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 1 2013, 02:58 PM   #31
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

captainkirk wrote: View Post
Some months ago I rewatched Q Who. During this encounter with a completely unknown but obviously hostile race, Picard orders a meeting. And then I believe he has another meeting later on. I can't think of any better way to suck the drama out of a story than to constantly interrupt it with everyone leaving to have a long discussion instead of actually driving the story forward.
I think Q, Who is one of the few times that the "conference room" detour actually works. Part of it is the exposition we're given and part of it is that Stewart and deLancie are such good actors that they can sell the peril of the situation even from the conference room.

Unfortunately, among the regular cast there just wasn't any other actor as talented as deLancie to play off of Stewart.
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Old November 1 2013, 03:03 PM   #32
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post

And Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof are successful at proving that no matter how much time you have at your disposal in perfecting a script, they still can't write a competent story that makes any kind of narrative sense.
The story made sense to me.

But for those that don't like the script, it really isn't fair to try and place it all at the feet of Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof. People act like they work in a vacuum and there are no suggestions or demands from the studio or the director.

They are a piece in a much larger puzzle.
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Old November 1 2013, 03:20 PM   #33
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

captainkirk wrote: View Post
Some months ago I rewatched Q Who. During this encounter with a completely unknown but obviously hostile race, Picard orders a meeting. And then I believe he has another meeting later on. I can't think of any better way to suck the drama out of a story than to constantly interrupt it with everyone leaving to have a long discussion instead of actually driving the story forward.
While I definitely understand that having meetings after almost being sliced and BBQ'd by an almost invincible force is very out of place, they could have worked if the story had been re-touched just a bit. There are a lot of good moments in those meeting room scenes that sets up the final moments of this episode.

Riker: You brought us here. You exposed us to them. You cost us the lives of our shipmates!
Q: Oh, please.

And Q isn't brushing Riker off because the lives of the crew means nothing to him. Q may have brought the Enterprise into this sector, but it was Picard who decided to stick around and explore a bit even with Guinan's warnings. It all cultivates in Q's lesson at the end which makes the best sense.

Again, I agree that how these meetings factored into the story weren't done well, I don't agree that they should have been cut out.
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Old November 1 2013, 03:39 PM   #34
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
I wish this guys don't return for the third film. No offence, I am not saying they are awful but they don't just work for a franchise like Star Trek. Orci and his friends are male fan writers so it is only logical that their writing in film lacks depth, substance and is filled with too much explosions, twisted sex scenes, unnecessary nudity and all the shallowness there is with little story.

They also care too much about showing off a woman's hotness and using her as a sex object than writing her as a strong formidable woman.

Star Trek films should have a very deep story with a lot of philosophical and intellectual influences. Star Trek has never falling into the mindless summer action flicks that no one will remember again once the summer is over talk less of before the year is over.

Orci and his friends are more suited for the popcorn action flicks with all the cars and the girls like Transformers and Fast and the Furious. They just don't fit Star Trek.

I advice Paramount to get real credible and intelligent science fiction writers like Micko Kaku or Neil deGrasse Tyson to at least write the story for Star Trek and then get an Oscar winning or nominated indie screen writer or a screen writers with a large body of work that has been met with high critical acclaim to write the script for the next film.

I have been so torn with how I feel about Into Darkness but now that the year is almost over, I can now say the film was a missed opportunity and the fault is with story.

I don't except Paramount to listen to many fans. All they care about is making money and the only way to make money is to have explosions explosions and explosions with really hot girls that do nothing.

Its sad especially with Gravity out. Gravity was a beautiful and well in depth sci-fi film that will be remembered for a long time. It is what Star Trek Into Darkness should have been.
That's a shame. I on the other hand, loved it and can't wait to see the writers return for Star Trek XIII in 2016.

Gravity was an enjoyable disaster movie in space, and nothing like Trek - which has endured for 50 years now.
Why is Kirk having sex with two cat women at the same time. Orci and his friends writes Kirk as an 18 years old college frat boy freshman who loves to experiment with sex because its fun.

Kirk is more of a horn dog. There is a fine line between been a ladies man and been a horn dog. A perfect example is how Nolan and his writer brother David Nolan wrote Bruce Wayne in their Barman film series.
Sex is fun and continues to be whatever your age. And Prime Kirk is no different, despite fans' attempts to dispel that image. Look no further than "The Conscience of the King" where 34-year-old James T. Kirk beds the 19-year-old daughter of a mass murderer, or "Requiem for Methuselah" where he gets uncomfortably grabby with an android, then petty and jealous about her, leading to her death.

Kirk was a creation of Gene Roddenberry, who was as sex-mad as it gets.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:07 PM   #35
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
The story made sense to me.
A story can make sense, but the narrative, plotting, pacing, and execution can bring it all crashing down.

For example, what was the narrative purpose of that moment where Kirk asks McCoy what Spock would do if Kirk was in Spock's position? McCoy said he'd leave Kirk to die as if to imply that Spock would under no circumstance violate any rule even if it meant saving the life of someone important. There is no moment in this film that pays off this exchange nor is there any moment where Spock himself violates any kind of rule to save Kirk in the end. It's a long drawn out moment that never pays off.

And despite trying to give Uhura a "purpose" in this film, why even bother having her attempt to be diplomatic with the Klingons when it all turns into an action scene anyways? Doesn't this do more to show how useless she is since Kirk's plan to "run out shooting" was what they ended up doing anyways? All that scene does is show that Uhura sucks at her job. But at least she can use a knife and fire a Klingon weapon!...

And what was up with Kirk's "revenge is bad" speech in the end when every act of revenge helped ensure the characters got what they wanted? If none of these characters acted on revenge in any way, things would be much worse off. And this is the same guy who, after agreeing that he wouldn't outright kill Khan, still physically assaulted him even though he was unarmed and had already accepted his surrender.

Also, if Khan designed these torpedoes, why would he leave the explosive components inside of them? There was already a sensor dampening thing in it to prevent people from seeing what was inside of it, so why leave the explosive components if no one can see them? And if you know the torpedoes have your crew inside and you set up booby traps to detonate said torpedoes if they were tampered with, why did Khan not tell the crew how to properly disarm the torpedoes to ensure his crew's safety? He literally risked the lives of his own crew that the film beats us over the head that he cares so much about... for no reason.

And why Klingons? Shouldn't Starfleet be more angry with the Romulans for destroying seven of their ships, Vulcan and almost Earth after the last movie? What's the point of calling the ship VENGEANCE when it's not even fighting the people who were the cause of making Starfleet more military based? I think someone in Starfleet, knowing that Nero was from the future would want to take action against the Romulan Empire and ensure that Nero and all those like him wouldn't take such action against the Federation again. Unlike the Klingons who have, well, just atacked us on numerous occasions, the last film established taht we are not at peace with the Romulan empire and if you want to bring in other TOS elements, there are officers in Starfleet who have a very open grudge against the Romulans over the Earth/Romulan war almost a century ago. To assume no one would care about the Romulans because Nero was from the future is like assuming every single person in Star Trek is rational and understanding. Even Star Trek with all it's Utopia preachiness isn't all 'that' perfect.

Yeah. The story can make sense, but that's all it has going for it.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:09 PM   #36
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post

The story made sense to me.
Yup, really had no problem following any of it, as it seems, everyone else was able to also.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:26 PM   #37
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think Q, Who is one of the few times that the "conference room" detour actually works. Part of it is the exposition we're given and part of it is that Stewart and deLancie are such good actors that they can sell the peril of the situation even from the conference room.

Unfortunately, among the regular cast there just wasn't any other actor as talented as deLancie to play off of Stewart.
What bothered me about it was that everything would stop so that they could give some exposition and give the more minor characters some lines. And I'm talking here about all the series, not just TNG. The worst at this was Voayger (which I'm actually a big fan of) where they would discuss important issues with the chef and the botanist.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:26 PM   #38
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post

For example, what was the narrative purpose of that moment where Kirk asks McCoy what Spock would do if Kirk was in Spock's position? McCoy said he'd leave Kirk to die as if to imply that Spock would under no circumstance violate any rule even if it meant saving the life of someone important. There is no moment in this film that pays off this exchange nor is there any moment where Spock himself violates any kind of rule to save Kirk in the end. It's a long drawn out moment that never pays off.
It does pay off all the way through the movie. It helps to define the differences in Kirk and Spock.


And despite trying to give Uhura a "purpose" in this film, why even bother having her attempt to be diplomatic with the Klingons when it all turns into an action scene anyways? Doesn't this do more to show how useless she is since Kirk's plan to "run out shooting" was what they ended up doing anyways? All that scene does is show that Uhura sucks at her job. But at least she can use a knife and fire a Klingon weapon!...
You complain when they don't give women anything to do, you complain when they do. Just because Uhura was unsuccessful negotiating with Klingons doesn't mean she sucks at her job.


And what was up with Kirk's "revenge is bad" speech in the end when every act of revenge helped ensure the characters got what they wanted? If none of these characters acted on revenge in any way, things would be much worse off. And this is the same guy who, after agreeing that he wouldn't outright kill Khan, still physically assaulted him even though he was unarmed and had already accepted his surrender.
Because Kirk is still learning. One of the things I love about TOS as opposed to the Modern Trek series, is that Kirk is a flawed individual but someone who can learn from his mistakes. See: Arena, The Devil in the Dark

I'm really starting to run out of energy for this non-sense. It's tiresome to watch people try to misrepresent a movie they dislike.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:27 PM   #39
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

captainkirk wrote: View Post
What bothered me about it was that everything would stop so that they could give some exposition and give the more minor characters some lines. And I'm talking here about all the series, not just TNG. The worst at this was Voayger (which I'm actually a big fan of) where they would discuss important issues with the chef and the botanist.
I agree that Modern Trek would've been better off if they had used the conference room scenes more sparingly.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:30 PM   #40
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
You complain when they don't give women anything to do, you complain when they do. Just because Uhura was unsuccessful negotiating with Klingons doesn't mean she sucks at her job.
It reminds me of when Damon Lindelof said that they had talked about an early idea where Uhura has to negotiate with a Klingon fleet that's heading to Earth while Spock is fighting Khan. And some fans got very angry about how such an important job is given to Uhura. I'm sure many of them were the same ones who go on about how "She's just defined by her relationship with Spock."
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Old November 1 2013, 04:35 PM   #41
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post

For example, what was the narrative purpose of that moment where Kirk asks McCoy what Spock would do if Kirk was in Spock's position? McCoy said he'd leave Kirk to die as if to imply that Spock would under no circumstance violate any rule even if it meant saving the life of someone important. There is no moment in this film that pays off this exchange nor is there any moment where Spock himself violates any kind of rule to save Kirk in the end. It's a long drawn out moment that never pays off.
It does pay off all the way through the movie. It helps to define the differences in Kirk and Spock.
Another call back to it is Khan's "You can't break rules, how can you be expected to break bones" speech.

Kirk and Spock are both evolving--growing up. Kirk has to learn that you can't always take risks, you can't let your emotions control you, that rules exist for a reason, he needs to be more mature, more serious.

Spock has to learn that you can't stick strictly to the letter of the rules a 100% of the time. You've gotta take risks, sometimes act on your emotions. That sometimes doing moral things mean not following the rules.

captainkirk wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
You complain when they don't give women anything to do, you complain when they do. Just because Uhura was unsuccessful negotiating with Klingons doesn't mean she sucks at her job.
It reminds me of when Damon Lindelof said that they had talked about an early idea where Uhura has to negotiate with a Klingon fleet that's heading to Earth while Spock is fighting Khan. And some fans got very angry about how such an important job is given to Uhura. I'm sure many of them were the same ones who go on about how "She's just defined by her relationship with Spock."
That would have rocked. Put her in the center-seat, and just have her own the scene.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:48 PM   #42
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

That would have rocked. Put her in the center-seat, and just have her own the scene.
If one single-cell organism on Earth died as a result of Uhura being in command during such a situation, people would be screaming about her being a failure and why do Orci, Kurtzman and Lindleof hate women.

I don't know whether to or at the ridiculous level of hate some fans show for the Abrams movies.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:11 PM   #43
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Lindelof is already gone from Trek, so there's that. I would like Orci and Kurtzman to step aside not just because I think they're bad writers but because I'd like to see the folks at Bad Robot let someone else get a crack at Trek. After they worked on MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE III, they handed the next film to other writers and the result was GHOST PROTOCOL, which happens to by my favorite of the M:I films. Would certainly be great if Brad Bird would direct the next Trek film.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:15 PM   #44
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Orci and Kurtzman have been part of a team that has given me two fun movies to watch. I have no problem with them coming back for Star Trek 2016.
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Old November 1 2013, 05:20 PM   #45
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Chrysalis wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

The story made sense to me.
Yup, really had no problem following any of it, as it seems, everyone else was able to also.
Yes, I agree also. This is one aspect of fan's complaints that befuddles me the most. The story is pretty easy to follow actually.
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