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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 31 2013, 07:40 PM   #541
Harbinger
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
The planet of primitives with Underwater Enterprise.

I count at least five Trek films showing some kind of exploration whatsoever.
I loved that part of Into Darkness. One of my favorite scenes in the new movies. But, I'm referring more to something that fits into the larger story of the movie. Star Trek V, as bad as it was, is a good example. The Gorn invasion from the recent game also kept somewhat in theme with exploration and discovery so we know that's at least one time Kirk and crew were involved with such a venture prior to Nibiru.
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Old October 31 2013, 07:56 PM   #542
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Yeah, I realize that exploration is hardly at the forefront of the films. I was simply more narrowly addressing the point of determining how many films had examples of any exploration in them "whatsoever." I also realized a few minutes later that two of the examples I cited were not of hero-ship exploration, but that shouldn't matter when the operative word is whatsoever.
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Old October 31 2013, 09:58 PM   #543
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
I love the original trilogy with my whole heart. Empire is in my top 3 favorite films of all time.
Right there with you.

but you MUST agree. the midichlorian bullshit is on the same level as the idea that Neo is simply a pawn of the Machines and that he is part of a process that has already run its course five times before. The mystery gets shat upon. the force was beautiful without any of that nonsense.
Yeah, the midichlorians thing was kind of a lame attempt at inserting something "science-y" sounding into what had been straight ahead mysticism. It was Lucas forgetting that his creation was at its best as fantasy-in-space; didn't really feel like Star Wars. (Robot Chicken pretty much nails it.)
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Old October 31 2013, 10:12 PM   #544
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I'm not required to like every variety of Star Trek, and I have the right to say that without all the personal digs being aimed at me. I also have the right to say that TO ME - that's a subjective opinion - nuTrek doesn't feel like Star Trek.
You definitely have a right to your own opinion.

But, I find it difficult to believe you gave the movie a fair shake after spending at least six months bashing it. If you keep telling yourself something is terrible over and over, nothing is going to change your mind (that's just being human).

Is Star Trek Into Darkness a perfect movie? No. But it is fun to watch, which is why I watch movies to begin with.
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Old November 1 2013, 01:45 AM   #545
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

^That sounds like the 'get you coming AND going' argument. If somebody doesn't like the sound of a trek movie and doesn't want to see it, he is told his opinion doesn't count because he didn't see it, and then if he does eventually see it, his opinion doesn't count because he was prejudiced against it to start with. You gotta pick your parameters, you can't have it both ways.

I knew I wasn't going to see CASINO ROYALE in the theater because for me, the film was fatally flawed by the casting of Craig as Bond, just on a physical level. When I did finally see it on DVD, I found that while that was still a huge negative aspect, I was at least as annoyed by the enormous number of plotholes and the horrendous pace of the thing, and especially by the portrayal of Bond - something I figured was going to be good based on Craig's acting talent. At that point I expected that the movie (outside of the casting) was going to be good, or decent, just on word of mouth (stupid of me to assume that in retrospect, I should have remembered TITANIC.)

So my preconceptions didn't make me more poised to hate the movie, but boy oh boy, did I hate that movie (and SKYFALL has effectively ended a 48 year run of seeing Bond movies in theaters for me, which says a helluva lot about it considering I even hung on through the Moore years. At least I still have the Fleming novels, the Dalton films and some Connery's to cherish.)

The Abrams Treks have been very similar to the Craig bonds for me; made with countless wrongheaded creative calls, yet massively successful financially nonetheless. In fact, the only Craig film I find remotely in the Bond vein is the one everybody trashes, QUANTUM, because at least there's a semblance of the Bond character, plus some superlative filmmaking if one can overlook the ADD editing.
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Old November 1 2013, 02:11 AM   #546
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

trevanian wrote: View Post
^That sounds like the 'get you coming AND going' argument. If somebody doesn't like the sound of a trek movie and doesn't want to see it, he is told his opinion doesn't count because he didn't see it, and then if he does eventually see it, his opinion doesn't count because he was prejudiced against it to start with. You gotta pick your parameters, you can't have it both ways.
I think it's one thing to think something may not be of interest to you then seeing it later on and not changing your mind. It's another to bang on how much you hate a movie for six months then go "oh god, I hated it!"

I'm reminded of a poster here who graded the film an 'F' weeks before it came out here in the States, slammed the movie over and over and over then saw it recently and hated it.

Do I believe that person really hated the film as much as they said they did? I don't know? That person expended so much time and energy hating on a film they hadn't seen that I'm not sure they would have had the courage to admit they were wrong.

So I usually don't believe folks who act in that manner.
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Old November 1 2013, 02:49 AM   #547
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
I love the original trilogy with my whole heart. Empire is in my top 3 favorite films of all time.
Right there with you.

but you MUST agree. the midichlorian bullshit is on the same level as the idea that Neo is simply a pawn of the Machines and that he is part of a process that has already run its course five times before. The mystery gets shat upon. the force was beautiful without any of that nonsense.
Yeah, the midichlorians thing was kind of a lame attempt at inserting something "science-y" sounding into what had been straight ahead mysticism. It was Lucas forgetting that his creation was at its best as fantasy-in-space; didn't really feel like Star Wars. (Robot Chicken pretty much nails it.)
Thing is the Force was presented in more practical, sciencey terms by Obi Wan in ANH:

"The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things."

"An energy field" is a lot more scientific than the spiritual emphasis I had erroneously assumed pre TPM was the sum total of the Force. The Force is created, the Force grows, it's an energy field and some people have more of it--and in the SW universe it's measurable.

What isn't measurable is what people will do with it. The spiritual dimension of the Force lies in each individual's free will. I suppose it's analogous to superhero powers, Spidey could use his for good or evil--what direction he took was his choice. It's just that the Force is located in the whole universe, "It surrounds us, and penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together", rather than a localized superhero power so
this paints it on a much grander, and thereby more mysterious, scale.

I find the idea that there isn't a scientific/spiritual dichotomy very interesting. Is the spiritual less because it can be measured? No, because free will stands outside of natural law.

Is Anakin's worth to the Jedi Order to be measured in a lab? Certainly his being feted by Sidious in AOTC "the most powerful Jedi ever" for, essentially, his high midichlorian count led him down the wrong path. You might be able to measure midichlorians but could you ever measure humility? I don't think so, and it was an absence and a temptation away from such virtues that fouled Anakin's worth to the Jedi Order.

This is a rewrite excerpt from something I wrote in 2002. I don't usually hang out in SW land fandomwise these days because the vitriol levels are way higher than anything you see in these little JJ threads LOL.. but I'm still a huge SW fan.
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Old November 1 2013, 03:06 AM   #548
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

teacock wrote: View Post
Thing is the Force was presented in more practical, sciencey terms by Obi Wan in ANH:

"The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things."
I completely agree. I had considered making the same point, and elected not to only because it's pretty far off topic. I will, however, chime in, in complete agreement with this point. Having done that, it's also worth adding that I consider this very dialog in ANH as one of the justifications for considering Star Wars squarely in the category of science fiction, as opposed to merely just space fantasy.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:04 AM   #549
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

trevanian wrote: View Post
^That sounds like the 'get you coming AND going' argument. If somebody doesn't like the sound of a trek movie and doesn't want to see it, he is told his opinion doesn't count because he didn't see it, and then if he does eventually see it, his opinion doesn't count because he was prejudiced against it to start with. You gotta pick your parameters, you can't have it both ways.

I knew I wasn't going to see CASINO ROYALE in the theater because for me, the film was fatally flawed by the casting of Craig as Bond, just on a physical level. When I did finally see it on DVD, I found that while that was still a huge negative aspect, I was at least as annoyed by the enormous number of plotholes and the horrendous pace of the thing, and especially by the portrayal of Bond - something I figured was going to be good based on Craig's acting talent. At that point I expected that the movie (outside of the casting) was going to be good, or decent, just on word of mouth (stupid of me to assume that in retrospect, I should have remembered TITANIC.)

So my preconceptions didn't make me more poised to hate the movie, but boy oh boy, did I hate that movie (and SKYFALL has effectively ended a 48 year run of seeing Bond movies in theaters for me, which says a helluva lot about it considering I even hung on through the Moore years. At least I still have the Fleming novels, the Dalton films and some Connery's to cherish.)

The Abrams Treks have been very similar to the Craig bonds for me; made with countless wrongheaded creative calls, yet massively successful financially nonetheless. In fact, the only Craig film I find remotely in the Bond vein is the one everybody trashes, QUANTUM, because at least there's a semblance of the Bond character, plus some superlative filmmaking if one can overlook the ADD editing.
on a physical level? so because his eyebrows and hair were blonde? Casino Royale was better than every one of the Brosnan Bond films minus maybe Golden Eye, and by a longshot too. Quantam was bland. and although I enjoyed aspects of Skyfall, overall it didn't do it for me. man if they ever hire a black actor to do Bond I feel really bad for you, sir.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:08 AM   #550
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote:
The mystery gets shat upon.
What mystery? The fact we learned in 1983, that any children of Anakin would automatically be considered a threat to Palpatine?

So you saw what's under the hood. Get over it. How does knowing what's under the hood shit on the experience of driving the car?
sigh... BigJake.... do the honors?
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Old November 1 2013, 04:15 AM   #551
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
Casino Royale was better than every one of the Brosnan Bond films minus maybe Golden Eye, and by a longshot too. Quantam was bland. and although I enjoyed aspects of Skyfall, overall it didn't do it for me. man if they ever hire a black actor to do Bond I feel really bad for you, sir.
We're getting to be closer wary-and-distrustful-acquaintances by the minute. Quantum had its moments but its premise was silly even by Bond standards, and Skyfall was great right up until the "we're going to my family's country estate where we have the advantage" final act -- WTF is MI-5 even good for if you have do that?

It is also puzzling to encounter someone who loves the Dalton Bond but hates the Craig Bond, because both versions of the character are closer to Ian Fleming's original than anything else that's appeared in that franchise.

trevanian's general point about "coming and going" argumentative gambits is well-taken, though. And teacock's discourse on the Force seems pretty much spot-on, except in that on that interpreation the "midichlorian" is kind of a superfluous embellishment.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:19 AM   #552
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You realize that only three of the last twelve trek movies have depicted any kind of exploration whatsoever?
Well, it's odd that you would say "of the last twelve trek movies" when there are only 12 to begin with. Let's see.

2. The Reliant exploring what they thought was Ceti Alpha Six.
3. The Grissom exploring the Genesis Planet.
5. The Enterprise going to the center of the galaxy.
9. The Federation's duck blind in the Briar Patch.
12. The planet of primitives with Underwater Enterprise.

I count at least five Trek films showing some kind of exploration whatsoever.
really? grammer Nazi over hear. I believe he sed of the last twelve trek movies because their will inevidably be moore.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:20 AM   #553
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
How does knowing what's under the hood shit on the experience of driving the car?
sigh... BigJake.... do the honors?
I would, but it's pretty depressing to have to explain to someone what "mystery" means...
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Old November 1 2013, 04:24 AM   #554
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
How does knowing what's under the hood shit on the experience of driving the car?
sigh... BigJake.... do the honors?
I woudl, but it's pretty depressing to have to explain to someone what "mystery" means...
cheers, mate.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:55 AM   #555
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I'm not required to like every variety of Star Trek, and I have the right to say that without all the personal digs being aimed at me. I also have the right to say that TO ME - that's a subjective opinion - nuTrek doesn't feel like Star Trek.
You definitely have a right to your own opinion.

But, I find it difficult to believe you gave the movie a fair shake after spending at least six months bashing it. If you keep telling yourself something is terrible over and over, nothing is going to change your mind (that's just being human).

Is Star Trek Into Darkness a perfect movie? No. But it is fun to watch, which is why I watch movies to begin with.
And you're entitled to think it's fun. At no time did I ever say that anyone who likes it is wrong to like it (too bad some people here can't make the reverse claim).

You really shouldn't make unfounded assumptions. I based my initial opinions on the copious spoilers, trailers, photos, and other information I saw. As of this post, I have seen STID 3 times in the last 48 hours - not because I like it that much, but because I've been trying to understand the damn thing. And you know what? It STILL makes no sense. I'm not actually seeing a whole lot of science in this movie. I am seeing a lot of space fantasy, though.

I have tried to find things to praise, and wow. I finally managed it. The line that nuSpock says about "expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously" was quite clever.

BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
^That sounds like the 'get you coming AND going' argument. If somebody doesn't like the sound of a trek movie and doesn't want to see it, he is told his opinion doesn't count because he didn't see it, and then if he does eventually see it, his opinion doesn't count because he was prejudiced against it to start with. You gotta pick your parameters, you can't have it both ways.
I think it's one thing to think something may not be of interest to you then seeing it later on and not changing your mind. It's another to bang on how much you hate a movie for six months then go "oh god, I hated it!"

I'm reminded of a poster here who graded the film an 'F' weeks before it came out here in the States, slammed the movie over and over and over then saw it recently and hated it.

Do I believe that person really hated the film as much as they said they did? I don't know? That person expended so much time and energy hating on a film they hadn't seen that I'm not sure they would have had the courage to admit they were wrong.

So I usually don't believe folks who act in that manner.
What the hell do you want people to say, then? Some of us on this forum have said that based on what we saw pre-movie, it doesn't look like a good movie. Some may have changed their opinions on that. And some of us simply had our opinions confirmed. What exactly don't you believe about someone stating that their opinion was reinforced?

I'm reasonably sure which poster you're referring to (re the grading), and surely it's his right to dislike something whenever he wants, without being suspected of lying when he states he dislikes it.

And how can you accuse someone of not having the "courage to admit they were wrong" if that person doesn't actually think he was wrong about something that is subjective?
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