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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old October 31 2013, 03:20 AM   #46
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
So the TNG Enterprise really does have a giant hamster in a wheel down in engineering, and a big yellow rubber duckie, among other in-jokes on the signage.
Whether these thing exist within the Enterprise Dee is debatable, however there is no debate that they exist on the ships MSD. That must is canon.
If the rubber ducky were canon, it would have shown up on Sternbach's Enterprise-D floorplans.
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Old October 31 2013, 04:26 AM   #47
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
HD, DVD, whatever.
Ummm, you're the one who brought up HD resolution.
Even if it happens to be discernible at a lesser resolution than HD, that doesn't really change the point, which is that we're coming back years later looking at high quality screen grabs (I should have said "high quality" instead of "HD"), which were beyond the means of the general viewer to get during the original run.


What I do remember, though, is all the actors seemingly posed to hide the emblem in shots when they would have been unmistakable.
Except the director didn't do that, there were two actor in the foreground of the sickbay shot laying face up, with their insignia exposed.
Sorry. What I meant to say was...

What I do remember, though, is all the actors that were seemingly posed to hide the emblem in shots when they would have been unmistakable.
I won't say in this case that I misspoke, because I really think it should have been clear that I was speaking of a general trend. If there's any doubt that I was speaking of the general trend, just rewind to an earlier post of mine where I said this:
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
I'd like to know why so many shots in The Tholian Web on the Defiant, in which the resolution is such that one would make out the emblems on TV's of the day, seem so cleverly staged as to cover them up.
That passage should also take care of what I meant by bringing up "HD" too, for that matter.

Poses hiding the emblems, or where they cannot be made out (from TrekCore's DVD screen grabs):
  1. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...lianweb026.jpg
  2. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...lianweb039.jpg
  3. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...lianweb040.jpg
  4. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...lianweb046.jpg
  5. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...lianweb048.jpg
Oh, hey, wait, what about #5? That's the picture you posted, isn't it? No, it's not. In TrekCore's image from the DVD screengrabs, one can't make out the emblem. What you posted isn't the same image as theirs. Interesting...

Solely on a tombstone created by Gary Mitchell. Kirk himself consistantly gave his initial as T, and so did his official records at his court martial (and in Mirror mirror).
Oh yes, precisely, that is the point. The point is that, given that Where No Man Has Gone Before lists the initial as R., why should we consider it an error, assuming what's on screen is never wrong. Why can't we therefore conclude that WNMHGB thus takes place in a different universe? But, I said that, too, to begin with.

And before you say, ah but maybe Gary was mistaken, two things. If he didn't know the initial, why make one up? Plus, he was a demigod by then, so there's no excuse for making a mistake like that.

The point is that, by reductio ad absurdum, we must conclude that some things seen on screen are not to be taken literally. Otherwise, we are led to absurdities, such as that WNMHGB takes place in a different universe. That is the point: we know that the R. was retconned away once the series proper was underway.

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Old October 31 2013, 04:26 AM   #48
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
What I do remember, though, is all the actors seemingly posed to hide the emblem in shots when they would have been unmistakable.
Except the director didn't do that, there were two actor in the foreground of the sickbay shot laying face up, with their insignia exposed.
Or it wasn't about the uniforms at all but about obscuring the fact that all the Defiant crew that we see is being represented by a handful of extras.
Especially considering how visible the arrow is here
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...nwebhd0228.jpg
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Old October 31 2013, 04:33 AM   #49
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Terror Grin wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
What I do remember, though, is all the actors seemingly posed to hide the emblem in shots when they would have been unmistakable.
Except the director didn't do that, there were two actor in the foreground of the sickbay shot laying face up, with their insignia exposed.
Or it wasn't about the uniforms at all but about obscuring the fact that all the Defiant crew that we see is being represented by a handful of extras.
Especially considering how visible the arrow is here
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...nwebhd0228.jpg
Now, admittedly, the arrowhead emblem is visible there, although that is an HD screengrab.
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Old October 31 2013, 11:28 PM   #50
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Terror Grin wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Except the director didn't do that, there were two actor in the foreground of the sickbay shot laying face up, with their insignia exposed.
Or it wasn't about the uniforms at all but about obscuring the fact that all the Defiant crew that we see is being represented by a handful of extras.
Especially considering how visible the arrow is here
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...nwebhd0228.jpg
Now, admittedly, the arrowhead emblem is visible there, although that is an HD screengrab.
No SD capture of that part of the shot at Trekcore (the selection of captures is limited compared to the HD counterparts)*

Point is tho is that they weren't trying to hide the patch; it is right up there as a foreground element, just like the other arrows in the other shot posted earlier.

*{no doubt an artifact of the evolution of web tech.}
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Old November 1 2013, 02:37 AM   #51
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

The "secretary" was on temporary transfer from Enterprise. She had beamed over before Kirk and Spock.
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Old November 1 2013, 02:56 AM   #52
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Terror Grin wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Terror Grin wrote: View Post
Or it wasn't about the uniforms at all but about obscuring the fact that all the Defiant crew that we see is being represented by a handful of extras.
Especially considering how visible the arrow is here
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x...nwebhd0228.jpg
Now, admittedly, the arrowhead emblem is visible there, although that is an HD screengrab.
No SD capture of that part of the shot at Trekcore (the selection of captures is limited compared to the HD counterparts)*

Point is tho is that they weren't trying to hide the patch; it is right up there as a foreground element, just like the other arrows in the other shot posted earlier.

*{no doubt an artifact of the evolution of web tech.}
I think GSchnitzer is probably right: they were trying to split the difference. The shots with obviously hidden patches could satisfy the fans who'd been paying attention to canon and who expected a unique patch, whereas the one or two shots with clearly visible ones could satisfy "original intent" (whatever that was).

The existence of one or two shots showing the arrowhead doesn't make the ship's patch immune to future retconning, and nor does that imply that ENT: IAMD "got it wrong". As retcons go, giving the Defiant its own specialized patch barely registers, which is really my main point here, as a takeaway. Retcons happened in Trek many times over the years, a lot of them far more significant.
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Old November 1 2013, 03:16 AM   #53
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

It's always worth trotting out this old post:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...7&postcount=12
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Old November 1 2013, 10:21 AM   #54
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

I'd like to add this one with the redshirt character tied onto a bed in sickbay.

I still remember how I asked my friend in the good old days of VHS to freeze frame this (and the other shot) for better examination. But even in SD and on a 4:3 tube TV the basic delta / arrowhead was recognizable.

Interestingly, they could have used the restraining belt to cover the insignia.
Can't help but not to imagine Bob Justman making a short stop at the set during shooting and doing some "re-adjustman" of the belt.

However, given the viewing angle, for in-universe purposes they could have altered the delta / arrowhead to look somewhat different. Unfortunately the producers of the IAMD decided to go for an insignia that's not compatible.

Bob
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Old November 1 2013, 11:00 AM   #55
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
In TrekCore's image from the DVD screengrabs, one can't make out the emblem.
Sure you can, the shape of the insignia of the woman on the floor is especially visible with the way the light is catching it..

Solely on a tombstone created by Gary Mitchell. Kirk himself consistantly gave his initial as T, and so did his official records at his court martial (and in Mirror mirror).
Oh yes, precisely, that is the point. The point is that, given that Where No Man Has Gone Before lists the initial as R., why should we consider it an error, assuming what's on screen is never wrong.
It is not an error, it's the product of a deliberate choice by Mitchell, for whatever reason he choose to place an R on the tombstone.

Why can't we therefore conclude that WNMHGB thus takes place in a different universe?
Based upon what please? Again, neither Kirk, nor his official records, said that his middle initial was anything but a T.

Plus, he was a demigod by then, so there's no excuse for making a mistake like that.
But why do you think it to be a "mistake?" There could be any of a number of reasons that Mitchell choose not to employ Kirk's actual middle initial. One that I'm fond of is it's a play on an old joke between them, R is for "Romeo."

Mitchell retained enough of his personality and personal humor to place this old joke on James "Romeo" Kirk's grave.

some things seen on screen are not to be taken literally.
I'm not arguing that nothing was ever changed, but to be honest I'm not the biggest fan of constantly using "ret-con" over employing simply explanations.


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Old November 1 2013, 11:07 AM   #56
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Why can't we therefore conclude that WNMHGB thus takes place in a different universe?
Based upon what please?
You seem not to have realized that the question you're responding to there was meant to be only rhetorical. Of course WNMHGB is not "really" in a different universe.
One that I'm fond of is it's a play on an old joke between them, R is for "Romeo."

Mitchell retained enough of his Humanity to place this old joke on James "Romeo" Kirk's grave.
Well, that's as much of retcon as any other retcon, but I'll award it massive points, for originality, cleverness, and squaring the circle of keeping what's on screen intact. Sure, James "Romeo" Kirk it is!

As for the rest, I've stated my position now several times, and I'm not going 'round and 'round again on that.
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Old November 1 2013, 04:20 PM   #57
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Oh yes, precisely, that is the point. The point is that, given that Where No Man Has Gone Before lists the initial as R., why should we consider it an error, assuming what's on screen is never wrong.
It is not an error, it's the product of a deliberate choice by Mitchell, for whatever reason he choose to place an R on the tombstone.

Based upon what please? Again, neither Kirk, nor his official records, said that his middle initial was anything but a T.
Based upon your own standards of nitpicking. You can't say episode X is an AU because of detail Y, then excuse similar incorrect details in episode Z.

WMNHGB was the third episode aired. Spock wears yellow, Sulu wears blue, the ship and bridge look different, there's no Dr. McCoy, Kirk has a BFF who he never ever mentions before or since, the uniforms and technology are different and Kirk's middle initial is R.... and it's all magically back to normal by the next episode, "The Naked Time"

That's a lot more evidence of an AU than a retconned mission patch!
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Old November 3 2013, 01:45 AM   #58
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
WMNHGB was the third episode aired. Spock wears yellow, Sulu wears blue, the ship and bridge look different ...
And if they repeatedly switched back and forth that would be a sign of prime and alternate universes ... but they didn't.

It obvious that Starfleet occasionally changes the uniforms, and this could include the insignia. But why would the Defiant crew's uniforms change after they all were dead, and after the ship had move into another universe?


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Old November 3 2013, 03:01 AM   #59
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

The 'Kirk's middle initial' thing in Where No Man... has never bothered me. Oftentimes, a person will say of someone "Procrastination is his middle name" or something like that. I assumed it went back to the Academy, where Mitchell may have said something similar of the 'stack of books with legs' Kirk. Also, I used to jokingly "loan" my middle initial to a friend who had no middle name.
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Old November 3 2013, 03:48 AM   #60
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
WMNHGB was the third episode aired. Spock wears yellow, Sulu wears blue, the ship and bridge look different ...
And if they repeatedly switched back and forth that would be a sign of prime and alternate universes ... but they didn't.

It obvious that Starfleet occasionally changes the uniforms, and this could include the insignia. But why would the Defiant crew's uniforms change after they all were dead, and after the ship had move into another universe?


How about when the nacelles would switch from vents to globes with in an episode, because they reused older sfx shots.
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