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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old October 30 2013, 01:52 AM   #31
T'Girl
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

I might be forgetting some incident, but I think you're right, of all the characters Deanna and Guinan never spoke to each other.

Strange.

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Old October 30 2013, 02:03 AM   #32
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Makarov wrote: View Post
I wonder if Troi and Guinan hated eachother. Did they ever have scenes together? Racking my brain and coming up blank...

All I'm remembering is some scene where Guinan tells Troi she's going after her job.
There was that episode (The Loss, was it?) where Troi lost her "powers", and Guinan had said something along the lines that she could be the counselor, but I don't remember if that was some kind of psychology to get Troi not to give up on herself, or what.
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Old October 30 2013, 02:21 AM   #33
Trekker4747
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Makarov wrote: View Post
I wonder if Troi and Guinan hated eachother. Did they ever have scenes together? Racking my brain and coming up blank...

All I'm remembering is some scene where Guinan tells Troi she's going after her job.
There was that episode (The Loss, was it?) where Troi lost her "powers", and Guinan had said something along the lines that she could be the counselor, but I don't remember if that was some kind of psychology to get Troi not to give up on herself, or what.
No, it was a ruse by Guinan to get Troi to realize she didn't need her "powers" in order to do her job.
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Old October 30 2013, 02:31 AM   #34
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

That's what I meant by "but I don't remember if that was some kind of psychology to get Troi not to give up on herself, or what.". I should have used the term 'reverse psychology', or something.
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Old October 30 2013, 02:32 AM   #35
Makarov
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

If I was captain I'd order Troi to not be counselor for a while since losing her powers seemed very traumatic. Just pop by a starbase and pick one up for a couple weeks. Hey there's an idea, a season with a new counselor, pulaski style.
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Old October 30 2013, 02:44 AM   #36
Shat Happens
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

If I was on the Enterprise and I had a problem I wouldn't seek neither.
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Old October 30 2013, 02:44 AM   #37
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

My favorite Troi moment is in "Man of the People", though she was under an alien influence at the time.

TROI: Well, maybe he's just tired of hearing you complain. . .I know I'm certainly tired of it. How do you think it feels to sit and listen to someone whine about themselves all the time?
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Old October 30 2013, 03:10 AM   #38
Trekker4747
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

I like how in "Hollow Pursuits" she has a session with the obviously twitchy and nervous Barclay and she has to realize how she dresses (in a boob/cleavage showing dress) that might make people with social anxieties crazy (at the very least she should sense it.) So she turns down the lights, tells Barclay to close his eyes, and she sits next to him talking in a soothing voice and then she gets confused when Barclay gets panicky and bolts out of the room.
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Old October 30 2013, 03:22 AM   #39
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Melakon wrote: View Post
My favorite Troi moment is in "Man of the People", though she was under an alien influence at the time.

TROI: Well, maybe he's just tired of hearing you complain. . .I know I'm certainly tired of it. How do you think it feels to sit and listen to someone whine about themselves all the time?
Wow, forgot about that one. Under an alien influence or no, how the hell would Troi ever recover a rapport with that lady? That's no different than an "under the influence" Data trying to kill you: how would you ever feel comfortable around him again?
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Old October 30 2013, 03:37 AM   #40
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Thing is, although we saw more "successes" from Guinan, they seemed to be addressing different situations:

- Troi handled actual emotional issues (orphaned children on separate occasions) and mental diseases (Barclay).
Those cannot be solved in a brief chat.

- Guinan handled the ethical dilemmas of otherwise perfectly healthy people.
Those can be solved in a brief chat.
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Old October 30 2013, 04:02 AM   #41
Trekker4747
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Troi was for needing long, extended, psychological care for emotional issues. Guinan has shit to do so isn't going to spend an hour once a week listening to some woman trying to get over her lost husband.

As said, Guinan could provide some friendly, one-off, advice to get one on the right path or make a decision but that's a lot different than emotional support and correction that is part of Troi's profession.
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Old October 30 2013, 04:10 AM   #42
Melakon
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
TROI: Well, maybe he's just tired of hearing you complain. . .I know I'm certainly tired of it. How do you think it feels to sit and listen to someone whine about themselves all the time?
Wow, forgot about that one. Under an alien influence or no, how the hell would Troi ever recover a rapport with that lady? That's no different than an "under the influence" Data trying to kill you: how would you ever feel comfortable around him again?
Conveniently, Troi's "advice" turns out to beneficial after the patient thinks about it, and even winds up thanking her.
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Old October 30 2013, 05:15 AM   #43
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Mordock wrote: View Post
I lean towards Peter David's interpretation: whenever Troi was in danger of getting a good scene, it went to Guinan.
Yup. I loved Guinan, but she really stole Troi's chances of thunder.
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Old October 30 2013, 05:49 AM   #44
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

Vic Sixx wrote: View Post
I gotta go along and say Guinan was better. Without her empathy, Troi was useless and spent most of her time on the bridge sensing stuff. Guinan was way better.
With her empathy, Troi was useless. The way she was written, 90% of the time, she had a keen sense of the obvious. If they didn't have her on the bridge so much, especially earlier on, they could have used her talents to greater effect at more pivotal moments.

That they had to bring Guinan on board pretty much speaks to how much the writers botched the concept of her role.

I think if she was less on the bridge and had an office next door to Dr. Crusher, for mental health, she could have been used to greater effect. Add in some stigma to mindreaders in the galaxy among rival alien cultures, making Picard consult her privately as his ace in the hole, maybe she could have been something more special.

Guinan was better at helping people. She even helped Data's daughter become more human more than anything Troi could have done.
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Old October 30 2013, 07:49 PM   #45
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Re: Who was a better counselor, Troi or Guinan?

The thread confuses two different [albeit seemingly similar] roles. Troi is a counselor and Guinan is not.

Troi is no doubt qualified, has numerous 'sessions' which we never see and is generally good at her job. She helps numerous people throughout the show to overcome certain tragedies in their lives.

Guinan is worldy. She is wise. She isn't just a bartender, she is a centuries old woman who has no doubt seen a lot of stuff. Your little love-life problem or ethical quandry is likey nothing she hasn't seen before. She has no qualifications but she is a damn good source of opinion and a useful measuring stick to keep you grounded and on track.

They provide a similar service but it IS different. You wouldn't walk into Troi's office and ask "How do I get girls to like me?" in a similar way you would not walk up the bar and say "My brother just died on Earth and my whole world has just fallen apart" while bursting into hysterical tears.
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