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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old October 29 2013, 12:43 PM   #31
Therin of Andor
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
why the insistence that the Defiant in TTW and IAMD are the same ship?
Because that was the writers' intention, going from interviews of the day.

They figured the panning shots in "The Tholian Web" were so brief that no one would notice the Enterprise insignia on the uniforms.
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Old October 29 2013, 12:49 PM   #32
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
There's a lot in Star Trek that wasn't intended to be nitpicked at HD resolution. This is one of those things.
The photos of TOS are from screen capture of a DVD, not a HD Blu-ray.

We've seen multiple example of alternate universes in Star Trek, the mirror universe itself is one example. Given the difference in insignia , why the insistence that the Defiant in TTW and IAMD are the same ship?

It's an interesting theory.

Is there any evidence that the Defiant in IAMD is *not* the Defiant from the Prime universe? (Well, I mean evidence other than this costuming glitch.)
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Old October 29 2013, 03:32 PM   #33
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Because that was the writers' intention ...
Meaningless, it's what appeared on screen and in the sound tract that matters.


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Old October 29 2013, 05:49 PM   #34
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
There's a lot in Star Trek that wasn't intended to be nitpicked at HD resolution. This is one of those things.
But it's still a little sad that ENT got it wrong.
The word is "retcon"

By these ultra-nitpicky standards, every episode of TOS exists in its own separate universe. James R. Kirk? Hand lasers? Antimatter destroying the universe? How many brothers does Kirk have?

It's a television show, not a history exam.
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Old October 29 2013, 08:11 PM   #35
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Having let two occasions go by with ship-specific patches and with the edict from Roddenberry and Justman to not repeat the "mistake" in the future, they might have split the difference. They used the arrowhead patch like they were supposed to, but then tried to obfuscate the issue.
That's probably right. It makes the most sense.
Yes, that sounds good.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
There's a lot in Star Trek that wasn't intended to be nitpicked at HD resolution. This is one of those things.
But it's still a little sad that ENT got it wrong.
The word is "retcon"

By these ultra-nitpicky standards, every episode of TOS exists in its own separate universe. James R. Kirk? Hand lasers? Antimatter destroying the universe? How many brothers does Kirk have?

It's a television show, not a history exam.
Right.

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
There's a lot in Star Trek that wasn't intended to be nitpicked at HD resolution. This is one of those things.
The photos of TOS are from screen capture of a DVD, not a HD Blu-ray.

We've seen multiple example of alternate universes in Star Trek, the mirror universe itself is one example. Given the difference in insignia , why the insistence that the Defiant in TTW and IAMD are the same ship?

HD, DVD, whatever. The point is that it is doubtful that they could have been definitively made out during the original broadcast on TV's of the day. I know that I couldn't make them out in the 1970's. Although we didn't have a VCR then, our TV wasn't exactly substandard either. What I do remember, though, is all the actors seemingly posed to hide the emblem in shots when they would have been unmistakable.

You may as well be asking, given that Kirk's middle initial is shown as an R., why the insistence that WNMHGB occurred in the Prime Universe?
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Old October 30 2013, 03:46 AM   #36
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

I don't think anything has ever appeared on a sound tract.
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Old October 30 2013, 04:04 AM   #37
Nerys Myk
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Because that was the writers' intention ...
Meaningless, it's what appeared on screen and in the sound tract that matters.


What appeared on screen was influenced by the idea that each ship had its own patch. Which was a commonly held idea for decades.
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Old October 30 2013, 04:32 AM   #38
YJAGG
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

I was hoping they would of changed the patches in Court Marshal in the Trek Redux
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Old October 30 2013, 07:05 AM   #39
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

That secretary, or whatever she was, at Starbase 11 in The Menagerie also has an arrowhead emblem. Given that Miss Piper quite clearly has a flower emblem, it gives a great deal of weight to the idea that at least some uses of the arrowhead on non-Enterprise personnel were costuming errors, either that just fell through the cracks or that were deemed too marginal by the production staff to justify the expense of correcting.

I would have at least liked to have seen that secretary's emblem turned into a flower for TOS-R. Perhaps it would have been too expensive an operation for convincingly "repairing" just a few seconds of footage, even in 2006, assuming the production staff even noticed it.

Lucasfilm had demonstrated the viability of doing this sort of thing a couple of years earlier, when they fixed Admiral Piett's mirror-reversed badge near the end of The Empire Strikes Back for the 2004 DVD release. Unfortunately, for some reason, they didn't fix a similar problem with Lando in the Rebel cruiser hangar in Return of the Jedi (I speculate that they deemed it much less noticeable and/or it would have entailed too much expense to fix, much more than fixing the Piett segment in Empire cost). It's also worth noting that while they did a pretty good job fixing Admiral Piett's badge, it still looks a little fake.
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Old October 30 2013, 07:38 AM   #40
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
I would have at least liked to have seen that secretary's emblem turned into a flower for TOS-R. Perhaps it would have been too expensive an operation for convincingly "repairing" just a few seconds of footage, even in 2006, assuming the production staff even noticed it.
I suppose if they started fixing stuff like that, the natural question might be to ask is, where should they stop? When Spock stuns that guard in Whom Gods Destroy, the wall wobbles a bit when he falls. Should they fix that? I have no answer or opinion, I'm just wondering aloud...
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Old October 30 2013, 08:40 AM   #41
Therin of Andor
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Meaningless, it's what appeared on screen and in the sound tract that matters.
So the TNG Enterprise really does have a giant hamster in a wheel down in engineering, and a big yellow rubber duckie, among other in-jokes on the signage.
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Old October 30 2013, 01:10 PM   #42
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
I would have at least liked to have seen that secretary's emblem turned into a flower for TOS-R. Perhaps it would have been too expensive an operation for convincingly "repairing" just a few seconds of footage, even in 2006, assuming the production staff even noticed it.
I'm happy they didn't mess with Mendez' secretary. Would you also recommend they should have changed the deltas / arrowheads on the uniforms of Kirk's "friends" in "Court Martial"?

Mendez' secretary could have just been in charge of starship-only affairs, hence the delta / arrowhead.

Where the Bob Justman memo (thanks GSchnitzer) continues to confuse me is this: If we assume that he wanted to state that all "starship captains" in a perfect world wear the delta, he still owes us the answer why commodores in charge of starships (at least and most definitely Matt Decker) were entitled to wear a different insignia.

Does this mean that once a captain is promoted to the rank of commodore he can pick his personal choice of insignia for himself (and perhaps for his crew?).

If the insignia selection process qualifies as a reward, I see no problem why Starfleet shouldn't honor the accomplishments of a certain starship by adopting its insignia as the general one for Starfleet (i.e. "The Cage / Menagerie" Orion scene - April's Enterprise / "Court-Martial" & "The Menagerie" - Pike's Enterprise / "Court-Martial" etc. - Wesley's Lexington ).

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Old October 30 2013, 02:59 PM   #43
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
I would have at least liked to have seen that secretary's emblem turned into a flower for TOS-R. Perhaps it would have been too expensive an operation for convincingly "repairing" just a few seconds of footage, even in 2006, assuming the production staff even noticed it.
I'm happy they didn't mess with Mendez' secretary. Would you also recommend they should have changed the deltas / arrowheads on the uniforms of Kirk's "friends" in "Court Martial"?
Nah. I should also add that I'd rather keep the Constellation and Exeter emblems as-is. I always thought they were cool. And, I'd certainly not change Mendez's secretary, if the price for that were "fixing" those.
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Old October 31 2013, 12:18 AM   #44
T'Girl
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
HD, DVD, whatever.
Ummm, you're the one who brought up HD resolution.

What I do remember, though, is all the actors seemingly posed to hide the emblem in shots when they would have been unmistakable.
Except the director didn't do that, there were two actor in the foreground of the sickbay shot laying face up, with their insignia exposed.

You may as well be asking, given that Kirk's middle initial is shown as an R ...
Solely on a tombstone created by Gary Mitchell. Kirk himself consistantly gave his initial as T, and so did his official records at his court martial (and in Mirror mirror).

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
So the TNG Enterprise really does have a giant hamster in a wheel down in engineering, and a big yellow rubber duckie, among other in-jokes on the signage.
Whether these thing exist within the Enterprise Dee is debatable, however there is no debate that they exist on the ships MSD. That must is canon.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
What appeared on screen was influenced by the idea that each ship had its own patch. Which was a commonly held idea for decades.
By some perhaps, but that "held idea" is not backed up by on screen evidence.

My take (personal opinion only) is that during the TOS era the vast majority of the fleet wears the arrowhead insignia. However ranks above Captain can have their own insignia, which is also worn by members of their own staff (yeomen, doctors, etc,). There was also different insignia for branches like JAG, Starfleet equivalent of USNS, and others.


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Old October 31 2013, 01:10 AM   #45
Nerys Myk
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Re: Crazily shaped assignment patches

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
What appeared on screen was influenced by the idea that each ship had its own patch. Which was a commonly held idea for decades.
By some perhaps, but that "held idea" is not backed up by on screen evidence.
What's on screen is the result of the folks producing the show making a decision. Either to fudge it by crafting shots that obscured the delta or creating new patches. Those are ideas that the on screen evidence supports.
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