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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 30 2013, 12:56 AM   #151
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
In TMP the metal pin breast badge as worn on Kirk's first uniform was supposed to be for "ground" wear, while those of shipboard personnel had theirs sewn on so it wouldn't snag or poke in the close confines of the ship. Those considerations were obsolete by TWOK, apparently, when the duty uniform had a surfeit of pins, buckles, straps etc.
Wow, those uniforms just get more and more impractical and absurd the more you think about them. It's bizarre that both the practical TMP uniforms and the ridiculous TWOK uniforms were both designed by Robert Fletcher. It just goes to show how much control the director has over the decisions in a film.
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Old October 30 2013, 01:16 AM   #152
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
It just goes to show how much control the director has over the decisions in a film.
Particularly when said director is obsessed with de-emphasizing any futuristic aspects of either the ship or its crew members. I never had a problem with Meyer making Starfleet more militaristic, but I draw the line at his insistence that starships be treated like old-fashioned mariner vessels. The redcoat uniforms only made things worse. I'd much rather have seen the TMP uniforms either used again or modified slightly to look like a hybrid between the TMP uniforms and what we eventually got in TNG. If nothing else, we'd have been spared officers from the Lost Era wearing the red jackets with no belt or turtleneck.

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Old October 30 2013, 01:30 AM   #153
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

I think it might be the livery which annoys me the most about the TWOK uniforms.

All those buckles and badges and rank pins....

I seem to recall Robert Fletcher complains on the The Wrath Of Khan DVD special features that he needed to 'invent' the rank structure of Star Trek because one didn't exist before he came along..... which is complete nonsense, and Fletcher himself really ought to have known this having costumed The Motion Picture (where the fully established and easily understandable rank structure of TOS was carried over).

While the TWOK uniform rank structure is understandable, perhaps even realistic, I'm not sure it's got the elegant simplicity of TOS's rank braids or the TNG/DS9/VOY era rank pins. And the audience at home prefers, I think, the ability to instantly understand the rank structure without having to study a style guide.
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Old October 30 2013, 01:45 AM   #154
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
If nothing else, we'd have been spared officers from the Lost Era wearing the red jackets with no belt or turtleneck.
God, I hated that. It looked like the crew members had to dress very suddenly, the way we would if a tornado or earthquake suddenly popped up in the middle of the night.
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Old October 30 2013, 01:46 AM   #155
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
Particularly when said director is obsessed with de-emphasizing any futuristic aspects of either the ship or its crew members.
Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?
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Old October 30 2013, 02:31 AM   #156
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?
Right. I understand that Meyer wanted to show the ship gearing up for battle (and also foreshadow Spock's death). But having such a thing happen on a 23rd century ship seems far-fetched. I also never liked the idea of cramped submarine quarters for senior officers. Kirk's cabin in TUC looked smaller than my college dorm rooms.

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Old October 30 2013, 03:03 AM   #157
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?
Right. I understand that Meyer wanted to show the ship gearing up for battle (and also foreshadow Spock's death). But having such a thing happen on a 23rd century ship seems far-fetched. I also never liked the idea of cramped submarine quarters for senior officers. Kirk's cabin in TUC looked smaller than my college dorm rooms.

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A bit of an exaggeration perhaps, but it's not very different from giving movie World War II planes photon torpedoes!
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Old October 30 2013, 03:30 AM   #158
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Question....

I've read that the cast hated wearing the uniforms in TMP because they were uncomfortable and hurt their backs. However, I never understood why. The uniforms actually looked quite comfortable and loose compared to other versions.

Also...is it really appropriate to call these "uniforms"? They are more like Starfleet approved clothes than uniforms. I swear it looked like no two people were wearing the same outfit and there seemed to be no protocol over who would wear what.
Walter Koenig goes into the issue of the uniforms in his book Chekov's Enterprise. He says some of the uniforms were indeed very uncomfortable, and one of the offending things was that the shoes and pants were all part of the same piece of clothing. He also says the schedule for constructing and fitting some of the costumes got severely backlogged, and it was common for someone to get a call to be fitted for a costume needed in a scene that had already been filmed a week or two before.

Maybe they just had too big a costume budget and got over-ambitious...?
Also, in Star Trek Movie Memories, William Shatner indicates the costumes were uncomfortable for a reason other than hurting their backs. The trousers were very snug in the crotch, and if a male actor sat down too quickly, he'd get pinched in a tender place.
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Old October 30 2013, 03:32 AM   #159
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
A bit of an exaggeration perhaps, but it's not very different from giving movie World War II planes photon torpedoes!
Not an exaggeration at all. That's another thing I think of whenever I watch that scene with the torpedo being loaded. The only other time we see anything like that is during The Undiscovered Country, another Meyer product. One of the VHS releases contains footage not in the original film release, including a scene in which Scotty informs Spock that he's manually counted every torpedo on board the ship and determined that Enterprise didn't fire as originally thought.

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Old October 30 2013, 04:33 AM   #160
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?
I always figured that was just because it was a training vessel -- that they made the cadets do everything manually so that they'd be able to cope in an emergency, or just to teach them discipline and a work ethic, or whatever.
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Old October 30 2013, 05:18 AM   #161
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?
I always figured that was just because it was a training vessel -- that they made the cadets do everything manually so that they'd be able to cope in an emergency, or just to teach them discipline and a work ethic, or whatever.
I'd thought so, particularly as the on-screen evidence seems to suggest that Star Fleet prefers to train teams (which justifies why we should see Our Heroes sticking together for decades instead of everyone getting their promotions or transfers and going off to other posts).

In that interpretation, doing things even the most ridiculously old-fashioned way is of benefit, as it gets people in the practice of thinking how to work out a task, organize the necessary steps, and distribute them to your team so everyone's able to do what they need when they need it. It's a different view to organization from the way modern militaries work, but I can't say it's an obviously foolish one, especially when an active starship crew is going to have to do all kinds of nonsense like figure how to rework the deflector dish to send a beam of pure margarine at the Borg or something.

And, after all, the simulator said the bridge was for the ``Enterprise Class''; is that the kind of bridge inside the simulator, or the simulation facility for the class that's slated to take the Enterprise?
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Old October 30 2013, 05:28 AM   #162
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Nebusj wrote: View Post
I'd thought so, particularly as the on-screen evidence seems to suggest that Star Fleet prefers to train teams (which justifies why we should see Our Heroes sticking together for decades instead of everyone getting their promotions or transfers and going off to other posts).
Starfleet certainly emphasizes the team approach. But my impression is that the TOS cast was kept together because of their popularity and because it was more convenient in terms of each film's plot. It's much easier to use established characters with whom the audience is already familiar than it is to break in new characters. One of the reasons why TMP is vilified is because of the inclusion of characters (Decker & Ilia) whom the audience doesn't know.

Nebusj wrote:
And, after all, the simulator said the bridge was for the ``Enterprise Class''; is that the kind of bridge inside the simulator, or the simulation facility for the class that's slated to take the Enterprise?
The type of bridge inside that particular simulator was a replica of the Enterprise bridge. The cadets using the simulator at the beginning of TWOK were slated to board the real Enterprise for their mission, so it makes sense that they'd be trained on that simulator first. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess there were simulators of other ships available for cadets to use. They weren't shown because only the Enterprise simulator was needed for the Kobyashi Maru test.

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Old October 30 2013, 07:14 AM   #163
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yeah, I always thought some of that went overboard. Eight crewmen to lift grates and carry them out of the way before loading a torpedo?
I always figured that was just because it was a training vessel -- that they made the cadets do everything manually so that they'd be able to cope in an emergency, or just to teach them discipline and a work ethic, or whatever.
That's an interesting theory. I always wondered whether it had anything to do with the fact that systems were still down after Khan's first attack, given that they only had two hours and all to get things working again. I never saw or heard anything in the film to tell us why they were doing it.
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Old October 30 2013, 08:06 AM   #164
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
In TMP the metal pin breast badge as worn on Kirk's first uniform was supposed to be for "ground" wear
Yep, we see it in the metal pin on Kirk's admiral's uniform, and in Sulu's first scene where he's obviously just arrived on board, still wearing his casual "ground" jacket with the same metal insignia pin used as a "button" on the front. All the principal actors had these jackets made, but never used onscreen.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
The traditional Starfleet insignia was originally worn only by Enterprise crew members. It's always been speculated that Kirk used his pull as Chief of Starfleet Operations to get the emblem adopted by the rest of the fleet.
That's a myth. In "Court-martial," we clearly see that Starfleet officers who aren't from the Enterprise were also wearing the arrowhead insignia. Somewhere on this BBS, there is a quote of a Bob Justman memo from TOS complaining that the use of different ship insignias in "The Doomsday Machine" and "The Omega Glory" was a production error...
But there was a Paramount press release about TMP's uniforms that mentioned that the Enterprise's insignia had been adopted by the rest of the fleet in recognition of its successful 5YM, Justman's earlier forgotten memo notwithstanding. (Perhaps to explain away the previous errors?)

Sran wrote: View Post
One of the reasons why TMP is vilified is because of the inclusion of characters (Decker & Ilia) whom the audience doesn't know.
Then why not vilify ST II for Saavik and David, who were similarly groomed as the new, young, heart throbs? ST VI for Valeris? "First Contact" for Hawk?
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Old October 30 2013, 10:27 AM   #165
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Sran wrote: View Post
One of the VHS releases contains footage not in the original film release, including a scene in which Scotty informs Spock that he's manually counted every torpedo on board the ship and determined that Enterprise didn't fire as originally thought.
In fairness to that bit though, their two standard computerised systems of counting the torpedoes are giving contradictory information, actually going to look at the things to make absolute sure is probably the best bet. I'm sure he used a SPACE calculator to keep track whilst he was counting (I know from bitter experience at work there's nothing worse than getting halfway through a big count and suddenly losing your place for no readily apparent reason).
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