RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,398
Posts: 5,505,688
Members: 25,127
Currently online: 549
Newest member: OneOfFour

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 29 2013, 10:35 PM   #136
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Maurice wrote: View Post
I'll have to look for it again, but I swear there's at least one contemporary review of Star Trek which pillories it for being too fantastic given that it was promoted to be so realistic.
Well, of course there was. Reviewers are as fallible and prone to prejudice as anyone else. Plenty of reviewers of science fiction over the decades have dismissed it as frivolous kid stuff no matter how thoughtful and plausible it was, because that was what they expected to see and they were too egotistical to look past those preconceptions. Hell, reviewers are one of the main forces that perpetuate stereotypes about which literary or cinematic genres are more worthy of respect than others.

Now, certainly Star Trek did not always succeed at being realistic. But my point is that it's a mistake to assume that its creators therefore did not intend it to be realistic.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29 2013, 11:50 PM   #137
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Just to get back to Gene's writing abilities, his novelization of THE MOTION PICTURE is actually a pretty good book, when read in conjunction with the movie itself. It fleshes out so much of it and adds to it too, with talk of what life's really like on Earth, in the 23rd Century ... what the people are like, how Humanity itself is evolving, as opposed to the kind of people who are drawn to STAR FLEET. I really enjoyed it, especially knowing that Gene, himself, wrote it. It's also interesting to me how this book gets NO hype, anymore, whatsoever. Nobody ever talks about it, it's like a forgotten remnant of a bygone era. But I love THE MOTION PICTURE so much, I just wanted to extend the experience even further by reading it and I'm so glad I did. I am not implying that GR missed his calling by not being a novelist, by trade. I'm just saying that when he revisited STAR TREK in movies, for the first time, he delivered beautiful and stunning imagery onscreen ... and a very satisfying read in novel form.
__________________
"― And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling clothes, and laid Him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn." (Luke 2:7)
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 12:01 AM   #138
sttngfan1701d
Commodore
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

I agree about the TMP book. I read it before I saw the movie after finding it at a thrift store. I thought it was very nice, and I enjoyed it more than the movie, actually.
sttngfan1701d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 12:13 AM   #139
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
I agree about the TMP book. I read it before I saw the movie after finding it at a thrift store. I thought it was very nice, and I enjoyed it more than the movie, actually.
I broke down and read it before the movie debuted, and it really set me up for disappointment, in that a lot of what is in the book is clearly not up on screen. The idea that Ilia's actual consciousness is within the probe, rather than just a xerox of same, makes the whole thing immensely different for me, in terms of Decker and in terms of my own involvement in the story.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 12:34 AM   #140
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I'm just saying that when he revisited STAR TREK in movies, for the first time, he delivered beautiful and stunning imagery onscreen ...
I think that Robert Wise deserves the bulk of the credit for that, along with Harold Michelson, Richard H. Kline, Douglas Trumbull, John Dykstra, Richard Yuricich, Mike Minor, Andrew Probert, etc.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 01:20 AM   #141
Lance
Commodore
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

I sometimes wonder which Star Trek shows actually do represent what Roddenberry intended the series to be?

Obviously "The Cage" is the go-to guy as far as his original vision is concerned (and it's worth noting that "The Cage" is in many ways more gritty and mature than even TOS itself), and maybe "The Motion Picture" and "The Next Generation" as well. All three do, in their own ways, share superficial similarities to one another.

OTOH I don't know if TOS sometimes failed to live up to even what Gene wanted it to be..... I get the impression sometimes from interviews and such that although he was very proud of it, he may have felt that it sometimes made compromises on what he intended to do in the original format document. Certainly in the last stages of his life he was quite sure that TNG better represented his ideals (although TOS is clearly built upon the same ideals).

Then again, how much of the finished version of "The Cage" truly represented Gene's vision?
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 01:40 AM   #142
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Christopher wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I'm just saying that when he revisited STAR TREK in movies, for the first time, he delivered beautiful and stunning imagery onscreen ...
I think that Robert Wise deserves the bulk of the credit for that, along with Harold Michelson, Richard H. Kline, Douglas Trumbull, John Dykstra, Richard Yuricich, Mike Minor, Andrew Probert, etc.
And a lot of that imagery is at odds to some degree with what GR intended. Certainly the approach of objects at high speed is not portrayed in the Von Puttkamer/GR fashion (dot that suddenly explodes into close view)
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 04:50 AM   #143
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Lance wrote: View Post
OTOH I don't know if TOS sometimes failed to live up to even what Gene wanted it to be..... I get the impression sometimes from interviews and such that although he was very proud of it, he may have felt that it sometimes made compromises on what he intended to do in the original format document.
Anyone who makes commercial television probably feels the same way. Compromises have to be made just to get a show on the air. TV producers have to get the approval of their studios and networks, so producing TV is not the expression of a singular, unadulterated vision; it's a negotiation.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 11:53 PM   #144
drt
Commander
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Lance wrote: View Post
I sometimes wonder which Star Trek shows actually do represent what Roddenberry intended the series to be?
I think this is somewhat of a moving target as it's obvious that Rodenberry changed with the times.

While all of his Star Trek work is humanist at the core, I'd guess one could argue that "The Cage" is probably closest to his original intent for "Star Trek" - as 20 years later, it seems that TNG is more heavily colored by GR's adoption of his "Great Bird of the Galaxy guru" persona.
drt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 10:30 AM   #145
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Christopher wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I'm just saying that when he revisited STAR TREK in movies, for the first time, he delivered beautiful and stunning imagery onscreen ...
I think that Robert Wise deserves the bulk of the credit for that, along with Harold Michelson, Richard H. Kline, Douglas Trumbull, John Dykstra, Richard Yuricich, Mike Minor, Andrew Probert, etc.
Well, yes, of course, but TMP's a Gene Roddenberry film, no matter whose names are in the credits. This was his baby ... his guiding hand and strong presence throughout production is unquestionable. I mean, you could hardly call this a Robert Wise film ... it bares little likeness to anything he's done, before. To say nothing of Gene's reputed constant rewrites which had gotten so frequent, that special notes, with the time they were written, had to be put on those rerwrites to determine which was supposed to be used. Gene's stamp is all over this picture and it is why it is so different from the rest.
__________________
"― And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling clothes, and laid Him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn." (Luke 2:7)
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 10:55 AM   #146
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I mean, you could hardly call this a Robert Wise film
Well, let's have a look at 0:05 into this video:



Why, yes. Yes, I could easily call Star Trek: The Motion Picture a Robert Wise film. Easily.

it bares little likeness to anything he's done, before
Wrong again. You should probably check out The Andromeda Strain. See also The Day the Earth Stood Still.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 02:25 PM   #147
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I mean, you could hardly call this a Robert Wise film ... it bares little likeness to anything he's done, before.
As mentioned above, it has very clear stylistic and tonal similarities to The Andromeda Strain. I feel it also resembles West Side Story in that both films feature multiple extended set pieces built around visuals and music with little dialogue.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 05:38 PM   #148
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

But how does it compare to Curse of the Cat People?
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 08:30 PM   #149
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I mean, you could hardly call this a Robert Wise film
Well, let's have a look at 0:05 into this video:



Why, yes. Yes, I could easily call Star Trek: The Motion Picture a Robert Wise film. Easily.

it bares little likeness to anything he's done, before
Wrong again. You should probably check out The Andromeda Strain. See also The Day the Earth Stood Still.
ANDROMEDA especially, but some similarities to HINDENBERG as well. Andromeda is almost a template character-wise for TMP, with Kate Reid/DeKelley serving as comic relief, ArthurHill/Shatner as the lead who really doesn't do much to save the day, and JamesOlson/Stephen Collins as the younger action lead who gets what little action there is.

Something arid as well as workmanlike about most later Wise. I love DAY THE EARTH though, no reservations about that at all, shows how the guy could deliver with a really good script.

One good thing about Wise is that he was big enough that the studio wouldn't have any trouble backing him if it came to a showdown with GR. That may or may not have been the case with Phil Kaufman (in fact I think the conflict between GR and Kaufman over what TREK was supposed to be is part of what led to PLANET OF THE TITANS not happening, which I still lament, though to be fair Kaufman got to do his BODY SNATCHERS remake instead, which absolutely SMOKED any & every Trekmovie, and for me ranks in the top tier of both political paranoia films and love stories.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31 2013, 08:48 PM   #150
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: Was Roddenberry a Terrible Writer?

trevanian wrote: View Post
though to be fair Kaufman got to do his BODY SNATCHERS remake instead, which absolutely SMOKED any & every Trekmovie, and for me ranks in the top tier of both political paranoia films and love stories.
But how does it compare to Curse of the Cat People?

No, serious, Kaufman's Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) is, I believe, an improvement over the 1956 film, which was no easy feat.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.