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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old October 26 2013, 10:33 PM   #31
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

MikeS wrote: View Post
The way I interpret it, the "C" always went to the future and then back again.
Than why do things change when it does come back?
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Old October 28 2013, 08:21 PM   #32
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
MikeS wrote: View Post
The way I interpret it, the "C" always went to the future and then back again.
Than why do things change when it does come back?
Things change to how they were before Yesterdays Enterprise.

Think of Doc Brown's chalk board in Back to the Future II (sorry I am at work and cannot upload an image)...
Replace the 1958 in Doc Brown's chalkboard with the Battle of Narendra III (2344).
Replace Marty Mcfly's 1985 with the 2366 where the Federation and the Klingons are at war.
Replace the "hell valley" version of 1985 (the skewed future) with TNG depicted as the "primeline".
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Old October 28 2013, 11:35 PM   #33
jimbotron
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

If the "C" was always meant to go back in time, how do you reconcile the new JJ Abrams reboot? Was Spock and Nero always meant to go back in time?
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Old October 29 2013, 11:29 AM   #34
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

MikeS wrote: View Post
Think of Doc Brown's chalk board in Back to the Future II (sorry I am at work and cannot upload an image)...
Replace the 1958 in Doc Brown's chalkboard with the Battle of Narendra III (2344).
Replace Marty Mcfly's 1985 with the 2366 where the Federation and the Klingons are at war.
Replace the "hell valley" version of 1985 (the skewed future) with TNG depicted as the "primeline".
If you're going by Back to the Future logic, that supports my conclusion even more. When Marty goes back to 1985 at the end of the first movie, things are vastly different. Not only are his parents now hugely successful, but the twin pines mall is now call lone pine mall. And at the end of Back to the Future 3, Clayton Ravine is now called Eastwood Ravine. Things may be back to normal, but it's not completely normal. That's what happened after Yesterday's Enterprise. Before the Enterprise C came through the rift, there was no Sela. When it went back through the rift with Tasha Yar onboard, there was.
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Old October 29 2013, 02:44 PM   #35
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

jimbotron wrote: View Post
If the "C" was always meant to go back in time, how do you reconcile the new JJ Abrams reboot? Was Spock and Nero always meant to go back in time?
Different writers different time travel rules.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
If you're going by Back to the Future logic, that supports my conclusion even more. When Marty goes back to 1985 at the end of the first movie, things are vastly different. Not only are his parents now hugely successful, but the twin pines mall is now call lone pine mall. And at the end of Back to the Future 3, Clayton Ravine is now called Eastwood Ravine. Things may be back to normal, but it's not completely normal. That's what happened after Yesterday's Enterprise. Before the Enterprise C came through the rift, there was no Sela. When it went back through the rift with Tasha Yar onboard, there was.
Interesting point. Seems I destroyed my own arguement with my own logic. I only recently spotted that they renamed it "Lone Pine Mall" - a fantastic bit of detail.

The truth is, time travel rules depend on the writer - so we have no way of telling who's interpretation is right or wrong. That Sela did not show up before Yesterday's Enterprise is no indication that she did not exist before then. She may have done, she may not, we will never know.
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Old October 29 2013, 03:22 PM   #36
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

MikeS wrote: View Post
truth is, time travel rules depend on the writer
No arguments here. I just can't help but feel when it comes to Yesterday's Enterprise, altering history in the same reality was clearly what these writers were going for. If you listen to the dialogue, everything that transpires in Yesterday's Enterprise is all about altering the history of the reality they're in, not following an already inevitable set path that will lead to the same result whose effects have already been in place. If everything was set in stone, not only would the reality not change, there would be no dilemma in the choice of sending the Enterprise C back in time. There HAS to be a dilemma of choice, especially when your characters are aware that things could be different.
PICARD: Who is to say that this history is any less proper than the other?
GUINAN: I suppose I am.
PICARD: Not good enough, damn it! Not good enough. I will not ask them to die.
GUINAN: Forty billion people have already died. This war's not supposed to be happening.
PICARD: If we send that ship back with new technology we will be altering the past.
RIKER: But that's what you're talking about anyway, isn't it? Altering the past.
PICARD: We're talking about restoring the past.
LAFORGE: How could Guinan know that history has been altered if she's been altered along with the rest of us?
DATA: Perhaps her species has a perception that goes beyond linear time.
PICARD: There are many things about her species we can't easily explained. Yet it is very possible she is correct. A ship from the past has travelled through time. How can we know what effect those events will have on the present. Indeed, we shall never know for certain, if Guinan is correct. But I have decided the consequences of that possibility are too grave to ignore.
If Sela was always in the unvierse before Yesterday's Enterprise, it kind of diminishes these characters making a choice. But when you go by the logic that Sela didn't exist before Yesterday's Enterprise, than choice does matter. Tasha didn't have to go onboard the Enterprise C and everything would have truly been brought back to the way it was, but that's not what happened. She did go back and now things are different. Of course, you could argue that such a huge difference would have affected more things, but bear in mind that these are the Romulans we're talking about here. Take this dialogue from "The Neutral Zone" for instance.
DATA: Since we have had no contact with the Romulans for fifty three years, seven months, eighteen days, we must consider that the information we do have, is out of date.
And how far ahead did the Enterprise C travel?
WESLEY: But that cruiser was destroyed with all hands over twenty years ago.
DATA: Presumed destroyed. The Enterprise C was last seen near the Klingon outpost Narendra Three exactly twenty two years, three months and four days ago.
So since no one in the Federation has made contact, or have even seen the Romulans for over 50 years, you can logically conclude that the Romulan's plan to stay secret was still intact after Sela was born, and it's thanks to Sela that certain events after the Romulans reveal themselves that things transpire as they do. Now this argument could also be used to say she was there the whole time anyways, but I'm still on the "Back to the Future" logic on this one. It makes the choices these characters make matter, and it clearly has a big impact on the series later on that would have been interesting to see if Sela wasn't around at all to begin with.
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Old October 31 2013, 03:46 AM   #37
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

I don't usually get into brain-twisting time travel discussions, but reading these interesting posts has nevertheless got me thinking...

On the surface, it seems to me that there's no reason Sela doesn't exist in the "regular" time line. The crew had not met her at the time of this episode, but she could easily have been around...just not known.

Think about it this way: in Time's Arrow, Data's head had been discovered on a cave on Earth. Following the events of that story, the reason became clear as to how it got there and when. Couldn't Yesterday's Enterprise be similar, minus the awareness of Sela/Data's head?
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Old October 31 2013, 03:59 AM   #38
Lance
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

Regarding "Yesterday's Enterprise", my feeling has always been that Picard was right when he argued to Guinnan that 'their' universe might be the correct one. The Enterprise-C always goes forward in time in any event, that's a fixed point in time, so the "war" timeline *is* effectively the real one, as it follows on from that course of events, where the Ent-C vanished at Narendra III. The universe where the Enterprise-C was destroyed while trying to save the outpost *isn't* restoring the past, it is (as Picard rightly says) changing the past. Changing it for the better maybe, but still..... everything that we saw in TNG up to the start of "Yesterday's Enterprise" is basically happening in a changed universe, one where the Ent-C was sent back in time and altered history.


Regarding "The Offspring" (yay, on topic! ), the thing that bothered me about this episode was (as the OP says) that it basically ignored the moral of "Measure Of A Man". Lal's sentience and her right to be with her 'father' should NEVER have even been in question, but they basically ignore the earlier episode simply for the sake of wringing a little extra drama out of her being wrenched away from him. Fail.
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Old October 31 2013, 08:45 PM   #39
MikeS
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x16 "The Offspring"

^ I agree with you about the war universe being the "original" timeline.

Lance wrote: View Post
Regarding "The Offspring" (yay, on topic! )
I know it appears that the discussion is off topic, but Jeyl had previously said that the reality in The Offspring is changed slightly from A Matter Of Perspective. That's why it's been raised here.
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