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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old October 28 2013, 12:38 AM   #451
Guy Gardener
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Even if Tim Russ was in Generations on The Enterprise A, and not in the Undiscovered Country on the Excelsior?
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Old October 28 2013, 12:54 AM   #452
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Those were his years in the V'Shar. Undercover.
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Old October 28 2013, 02:31 AM   #453
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I think the problem is Voyager was an 80s TV show in the 90s. In the 90s, serialized TV shows like X-Files were taking off, so Voyager's episodic story seemed behind the ball compared to other shows at the time.
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Old October 28 2013, 04:10 AM   #454
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

By 1995, serialized shows were not the norm. X-Files was the only real one and it was a trailblazer doing something unexpected. B5 wasn't well known and wasn't getting good enough viewers to make Paramount happy if VOY tried the same.

If they had done what Berman had wanted and waited until DS9 was finished then there'd be other serial successes that Berman could show to Paramount as examples of what could be done.

Also, it would've given them enough time to hire a permanent writing staff and iron out the shows' conceptual problems.
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Old October 28 2013, 04:33 AM   #455
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
By 1995, serialized shows were not the norm. X-Files was the only real one and it was a trailblazer doing something unexpected.
Homicide: Life on the Street had a lot of serial elements (so did a lot of other cop shows from that period, as well as a few years earlier). The X-Files certainly wasn't the only serialized drama on the airwaves in the mid-90s.
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Old October 28 2013, 04:34 AM   #456
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Voyager and TNG both had an 'A plot and B plot' structure. This meant writers were instructed to write their stories with divergent plot strands that are sometimes both tied together somehow by the end of an episode, and were at other times entirely seperate from each other but were each individually tied up by the end of the episode.

This is the 'format' on which both shows were built.

In order to be a true 'Serialized Procedural', VOY would have needed to alter this structure so that the A Plot was a "planet of hats" show or another singular device that changes from week to week, while the B Plot was a never changing constant that stays the same from week to week, and is gradually built to a crescendo in the series finale.

TNG and VOY did do this from time to time, but only on limited scales, usually for two-parters. An example would be TNG:Birthright, where Part 1 has got an episodic B Plot (Data's dream) which is resolved by the end of the episode, while it's serialized A plot (Worf investigating claims that his father is not dead) is carried over to the following episode.

TNG:Birthright is a true 'Serialized Procedural' format, but on a much smaller scale than perhaps would be ideal.

What has been suggested in this thread as being the format of a 'Serialized Procedural' in VOY is in fact simply continuity bleed: where one instance of continuity is carried through multiple episodes, but it is not in itself a "plot". It's a character arc, or a series of events that culminates in something later down the track. But it isn't, strictly, serialization. It isn't even episodic serialization. It's just good continuity.

Nobody here is denying the point made by DigificWriter that Voyager did in fact have a great deal more episode-to-episode continuity than it is often held up as having. And this has been demonstrated ably by DigificWriter. But 'serialization' it most definitely was not.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:05 AM   #457
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

A Serialized Procedural is a Procedural Drama (i.e. Homicide: Life on the Street, The X-Files, Bones, and the new Hawaii 5-0, to name a few) which has elements of serialization to it and that, despite the fairly standalone nature of many of its episodes, does need to be watched in a specific order in order to accommodate the accurate unfolding and utilization of its serialized elements.

Voyager, like the above shows, very much contains serialized elements mixed with procedural storytelling and very much does need to be watched in a specific order in order for its serialized elements to accurately unfold.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:16 AM   #458
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

OR you could just forget about the folding and the unfolding and hit random play all night and see if you ever get confused.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:34 AM   #459
Anwar
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Harvey wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
By 1995, serialized shows were not the norm. X-Files was the only real one and it was a trailblazer doing something unexpected.
Homicide: Life on the Street had a lot of serial elements (so did a lot of other cop shows from that period, as well as a few years earlier). The X-Files certainly wasn't the only serialized drama on the airwaves in the mid-90s.
Well, to be fair Cop shows already have the mainstream audiences and appeal that Genre shows can only hope for when they begin. They can go for that kind of risk factor right from the start because they have a large enough audience potential to begin with.

I'm talking serial Genre shows. British TV had been doing this since the 60s (Doctor Who) and 70s (Blakes Seven) but in the US this was pretty alien until the 90s. It wasn't even until the 2000s that it became more common for Genre shows to attempt this.

Again, this supports Berman's idea of waiting until 2000 or 2001 to go Voyager. He understood things far better than is assumed.
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Old October 28 2013, 01:49 PM   #460
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
Again, this supports Berman's idea of waiting until 2000 or 2001 to go Voyager. He understood things far better than is assumed.
I think this best illustrates the Berman problem: maybe he knew what was best, but he lacked the ability and will to oppose those who would do otherwise.
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Old October 28 2013, 04:29 PM   #461
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I'm really glad I A) asked the question about watching TUC before Flashback and B) decided to act on the recommendations I got to go ahead and watch both. It was a lot of fun seeing the movie and then seeing a variation of its events play out immediately thereafter.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
See if you can find the continuity errors.
The biggest difference between TUC and the Flashback recreations of parts of its events that I noticed is Janice Rand's rank, but I would personally classify the discrepancy as being a retcon rather than a continuity error.

Growing up, I was never that fond of the TOS crew despite having watched the first four movies, but things like Star Trek Vanguard and the two Abrams movies have since given me a new appreciation for them that I have to admit greatly enhanced my enjoyment of both TUC and Flashback.

As an aside, I'm now ready to watch The Chute, which means that I've made it to Season3 as its listed on Amazon Instant Video (Basics P2, Sacred Ground, False Profits, and Flashback are listed under Season 2, albeit in their S3 broadcast order).
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Old October 28 2013, 05:05 PM   #462
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
I'm really glad I A) asked the question about watching TUC before Flashback and B) decided to act on the recommendations I got to go ahead and watch both. It was a lot of fun seeing the movie and then seeing a variation of its events play out immediately thereafter.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
See if you can find the continuity errors.
The biggest difference between TUC and the Flashback recreations of parts of its events that I noticed is Janice Rand's rank, but I would personally classify the discrepancy as being a retcon rather than a continuity error.

Growing up, I was never that fond of the TOS crew despite having watched the first four movies, but things like Star Trek Vanguard and the two Abrams movies have since given me a new appreciation for them that I have to admit greatly enhanced my enjoyment of both TUC and Flashback.

As an aside, I'm now ready to watch The Chute, which means that I've made it to Season3 as its listed on Amazon Instant Video (Basics P2, Sacred Ground, False Profits, and Flashback are listed under Season 2, albeit in their S3 broadcast order).
Did you notice how Valtane dies in "Flashback" but is alive and well at the end of TUC?
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Old October 28 2013, 05:33 PM   #463
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ That's way too nebulous to actually be considered an error, IMO, and even if it is one, it's ultimately inconsequential.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:50 PM   #464
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

A man coming back from the dead with no explanation is inconsequential? Either the writers were just too lazy to notice or they thought we were too stupid to notice. Was it really hard to cast a new guy as Tuvok's coworker that dies instead of Night of the Living Redshirts?

At least in ID they lamely tried to say "superblood" cured Kirk's death.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:56 PM   #465
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ When you consider that there is a point in TUC where Vultane appears to be in two different places at once (thank you, Memory Alpha) and that the shot of the Excelsior crew is a very minor footnote of TUC's ending, any discontinuity that may or may not exist with regards to Vultane IS ultimately inconsequential.
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