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Old October 26 2013, 05:13 PM   #91
Reverend
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Re: Crusade Question

Triple-F wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.
Is that speculation on your part (in which case it’s no more valid or invalid than what Kirk55555 suggested) or something which is mentioned in the books.

Either way though, sticking with what is seen and said on screen. Captain Jack (Racing Mars) had a keeper, and while he could drop some subtle hints that no one picked up on at the time, it was essentially controlling what he said and did. Swapping ident cards, lying, trying to shoot the leader of the Mars resistance. Dialog from that episode also points out the level of control they have - and it goes a bit beyond just correcting wrong behaviour.

Captain Jack (after it was partially removed) - “I wanted to warn you, but I couldn’t say anything. It wouldn’t let me”

Dr Franklin - “This entity can cut into the neuro pathways and override them. Some of the micro fibres are fresh, so my guess is it’s control over a given host grows as it does.”

Londo would have had one on him for a couple of decades, or there abouts.
Short answer: it's in the books.

Admittedly it's been some years since I've read them so some details may have escaped me. As I said previously though, they do have some direct muscle control, but it's limited. IIRC they can block action through paralysis (partial and total) but they can't *make* a person carry on a whole conversation, controlling their every move for extended periods and the like just isn't their purpose. That's what mindwipes and construct personalities are for.

This is clearly supported in what Londo says in 'War Without End': -

"I gave a very good performance. Yes. It was satisfied. Doesn't care why I do what I do...as long as I do it. As long as you are dead."

It wasn't the keeper talking when he was ranting on at Sheridan & Delenn, it was Londo acting under orders. Just as he did in 'The Fall of Centauri Prime' and again in 'Objects at Rest'. Though in the latter case he tried and failed to get a drink so he could warn them somehow.

Further more, if it had *total* control then it wouldn't be at all possible for either Londo or Jack to even try to get around the thing.

In the novel we see that shortly after his coronation, Londo underwent periods of torture and conditioning. He still had his own mind and thoughts, but he learns the hard way that open rebellion is futile. I imagine Jack and the Regent had a similar experience, though the Regent for his part was clearly broken by it.

Indeed we saw both Londo and Captain Jack outsmart the thing by indirectly subverting it's will. We even saw Jack able to fight it's muscle control as he was clearly struggling to hold that PPG steady.

As you say though, that keeper was relatively new so it's control wouldn't be as pervasive.

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I'm at the library and don’t have headphones, so I can’t watch the clip. Either way, all he did was complement humans. I know the keeper wasn’t constantly going, just whenever it mattered, so even sober I doubt it would care about him complimenting humans to only a few people in private. Now, it probably wouldn’t let him say good things in public, but one sppech to a few people probably wouldn’t matter. I still think it controls more than just some leash, but it obviously wasn’t 100% 24/7, or he’d never be able to drink to put it to sleep. It was probably more like 95% in control when he was in public, 100% when it needed to, and only in control in private when it needed to. That still makes him a puppet, just one that could occasionally do minor things of its own free will.
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
Since you're at the library, do us both a favour and go find a dictionary and look up the word "subtext". There's a good chap!
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Old October 26 2013, 07:48 PM   #92
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Re: Crusade Question

I'm not sure what subtext had to do with anything.

We're not going to agree on this. I think Puppet Londo is the worst thing in babylon 5. Its a bad idea that was done as well as it could be but that didn't save it. Its B5's biggest mistake from a character perspective in my opinion. We might as well leave it at that.
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Old October 27 2013, 09:10 AM   #93
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: Crusade Question

I think the keeper is more sheepdog than Hypnotoad. A strong-willed sheep might sometimes be able to outwit the sheepdog, but no-one can resist Hypnotoad.
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Old October 27 2013, 11:44 AM   #94
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Re: Crusade Question

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what subtext had to do with anything.
Alas, this is often the problem I feel.

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
I think the keeper is more sheepdog than Hypnotoad. A strong-willed sheep might sometimes be able to outwit the sheepdog, but no-one can resist Hypnotoad.
Why would anyone want to resist the Hypnotoad? The Hypnotoad is our friend. All glory to the Hypnotoad!
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Old October 27 2013, 11:52 AM   #95
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Re: Crusade Question

Indeed.
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Old October 27 2013, 12:59 PM   #96
chrisspringob
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Re: Crusade Question

A couple of points on the planned future storylines for Crusade:

-Yes, Gideon gets shot at the end of "End of the Line" (the season finale of Season 1). JMS claimed that the plan was for him to return in Season 2. However, in one of the script books, there's an interview with Janet Greek in which she talks about how Gary Cole didn't really fit in with the culture of B5/Crusade, and that he wasn't a "team player" in the way that, say, Bruce Boxleitner was on B5, and treated it like just another job. She was convinced that he wasn't going to come back for Season 2. (But this is just one person's opinion, so take it with the requisite grain of salt.)

-The Technomage books are indeed quite good. *However*, I think one can go too far in using it to infer clues about the storyline of Crusade. I don't remember all the details anymore, but when the books came out, there was some debate about them on Usenet, in which people were pointing out some inconsistencies between the books and the portrayal of the Technomages on B5 and Crusade. Most specifically, inconsistencies between the books and the unproduced script for "End of the Line" (which was actually written by JMS, so likely closer to what he intended).

Again, I forget most of the details, but I think one of the big things was that in the books, the Technomages aren't really scientists. They don't really understand the technology that they're using, and literally treat it as sorcery, but this is at odds with how they're presented in the show. Also some discrepancies regarding their precise motives for fleeing the known space during the Shadow War, but I don't want to get too heavily into spoiler territory, because if you haven't read them, you should read the unproduced Crusade scripts, and/or the Technomage books.
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Old October 28 2013, 01:23 AM   #97
Mr Light
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Re: Crusade Question

In the novels, some of them of scientists, some are not. But at the end of the novel, with all the characters stuck in the Hiding Place, they will clearly re-position themselves to learn all they can about the tech in order to replicate it.
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