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Old October 26 2013, 10:11 PM   #106
R. Star
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

You're absolutely right... a planet with at least thousands if not millions of people can be evacuated on a moment's notice. Certainly the Maquis had so many resources at it's disposal that everyone had their own personal ship fueled and ready to go at any time. And everyone on a whole planet can be contacted and told to get the hell off in a matter of minutes since that resin cloud(that same trilithium that's so deadly PIcard all but freaked and even Worf questioned the order to fire) only took a few seconds to cover the part of the planet it showed.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:19 PM   #107
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ We actually have no idea how many colonists were on that planet.

And there was dialogue that mentioned Sisko giving them time to evacuate - it's not like he just nuked it from orbit. He gave them time to get away. And at the end, I believe it is confirmed that there were no deaths - all of the colonists just switched planets.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:27 PM   #108
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

The log entry just said colonists switched planets. It didn't say anything about percentages or anything and the whole tone of the log entry sounded like Sisko was just covering his ass on that one to justify things.

He gave them an hour... they thought he was bluffing and did nothing and didn't start evacuating until -after- Sisko fired a weapon of mass destruction on them. Jail time for that alone, regardless of if people died or not. Which is naive to assume they didn't given Picard was crying over how unstable the trilithium stuff was for a whole episode in TNG and it was the same stuff Soran used to blow up a star in Generations. The stuff kills and it spread across the planet almost instantaneously by that graphic of the planet turning yellow.

So yeah... you have a deadly compound spread across the planet and you think everyone on the planet, however many there are, however spread out they are, is instantly going to be notified somehow and to get into a ship to escape on a few minutes notice, because of course a group of terrorists is so well equipped that having enough equipment is never an issue. That's bending the arm of coincidence to say the least.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:55 PM   #109
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I like how people are giving Sisko a pat on the back for something thats considered a war crime.
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Old October 26 2013, 11:07 PM   #110
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ Yeah, well, Eddington was using biogenic weapons, and people seem to think he's such a hotshot cool revolutionary hero. So turnabout would seem to be fair play.
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Old October 26 2013, 11:09 PM   #111
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ Yeah, well, Eddington was using biogenic weapons, and people seem to think he's such a hotshot cool revolutionary hero. So turnabout would seem to be fair play.
Wow the he did it too defense, I was unaware that the Star Trek Universe operated on playground rules

It doesn't matter if Eddington did it too, its still a war crime.
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Old October 27 2013, 12:07 AM   #112
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
mickmike wrote: View Post
The Federation is constantly wandering around telling different alien cultures how they should live.
Uh, no, really, they're not.

The Federation has the absolute right to make its case, so to speak, for worlds which wish to join. They have the right to point out the benefits of Federation membership. But the ultimate decision is left up to that world. If they don't want to join, they don't have to. And as I said, worlds have left the Federation before, and there wasn't any war that broke out as a result.

Eddington would have had a stronger case if he'd simply reminded Sisko that the problem was personal. It was. Sisko was pissed at Eddington HIMSELF. If that had been the argument, I'd buy it. But none of this Borg crap. That's an insult to everyone who died at the hands of the Borg.

Are you serious, nearly every episode of TNG involved them showing up and telling the aliens how they should be more like us.

Eddington does actually question Sisko on his real motives later in the episode. If he ws saying that all the people who had died at the hands of the borg had deserved it, that would be an insult to those who died because of the borg. Eddington is expressing a viewpoint that The Federation is Borg-like in how they bring races into the fold and the homogenise them.

The Aliens are forced to accept Federation values and change their culture if they want in. The Federation spends a few years evaluating a planet when it asks to join if there is an aspect of that culture that doesn't mesh with Federation values, they have to change it or they won't be allowed to join. They have to 'adapt their culture to service' (to quote a certain cybernetic race) the federation

The argument that the Federation is an homogenis organisation goes back at least to the undiscovered country where azetbur calls the federation a 'homo sapiens only club'.

But Federation attitude towards other cultures is a thread in itself.

The point is The Cardassians started the whole conflict with the maquis. They did it by poisoning food replicators, harrasing the colonists, and arming their civilian vessels and attacking the federation colonies. All of this went against the peace treaty. One of the Maquis characters on voyager, Kenneth Dalby joined the maquis because his wife was raped and murdered by 3 Cardassians (see the episode learning curve).

How did the Federation respond to all this? How did they respond to the destruction of food supplies, raping and murdering of civilians and attacks against their colonies? By continuing to placate the cardassians who had proven themselves untrustworthy going back as far as the first episode to feature them, the wounded. Instead of standing up to the cardassians, the federation gave them food replicators and abandoned their own people forcing them to become criminals.

Last edited by mickmike; October 27 2013 at 12:22 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old October 27 2013, 01:49 AM   #113
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

It's kind of like telling a rape victim it's her fault because she shouldn't have been there, or she sinfully provoked it by dressing loosely.
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Old October 27 2013, 02:16 AM   #114
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
It's kind of like telling a rape victim it's her fault because she shouldn't have been there, or she sinfully provoked it by dressing loosely.
Wow...

Really , your using a rape analogy.

That was unexpected.

I mean , really?

Isn't more like getting a short tempered, psychotic landlord who can enter your house at any time do what ever he wants take over your property.

With a long history of territorial behaviour and bullying and oppressing and attempted genocide ( Bajor). And then crying surprise and foul when said landlord does the kind of thing they are known for, like oppressive violence and really terrible things.

And not moving, when you told by your previous landlord that hey to stop a fight with said bastard ,he's taking over your rent.

Why they stayed was out of pride and a sense of being screwed over , which they where. However they could have moved, space Is big.

It's not their fault they go screwed over, but hey if you have the option to move and not drag your previous Landlord into a war. Then maybe you should move.
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Old October 27 2013, 02:44 AM   #115
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Tuvok wrote: View Post
GoRe Star wrote: View Post
It's kind of like telling a rape victim it's her fault because she shouldn't have been there, or she sinfully provoked it by dressing loosely.
Wow...

Really , your using a rape analogy.

That was unexpected.

I mean , really?

Isn't more like getting a short tempered, psychotic landlord who can enter your house at any time do what ever he wants take over your property.

With a long history of territorial behaviour and bullying and oppressing and attempted genocide ( Bajor). And then crying surprise and foul when said landlord does the kind of thing they are known for, like oppressive violence and really terrible things.

And not moving, when you told by your previous landlord that hey to stop a fight with said bastard ,he's taking over your rent.

Why they stayed was out of pride and a sense of being screwed over , which they where. However they could have moved, space Is big.

It's not their fault they go screwed over, but hey if you have the option to move and not drag your previous Landlord into a war. Then maybe you should move.
you are completely missing my point. The cardassians never lived up to their end of the treaty. The colonists were allowed to live on those planets by both the cardassians and the federation. The cardassians pledged that they would not interfere with the colonists. However they did so and behind the federations back.

the federation looses all credibility by providing support to a government that as you described has a history of genocide, bullying and oppression instead of supporting their own people.

the federation could have easily taken the cardassians on in an armed conflict. i mean they went to war with the klingons over cardassia only a couple of years after the treaty was signed.

And even if the colonists had moved, would that have been enough for the cardassians? given their history, probably not. the federation gave up a lot to satisfy a government who had no real intention of maintaining the peace.

Last edited by mickmike; October 27 2013 at 03:03 AM.
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Old October 27 2013, 03:01 AM   #116
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
It's kind of like telling a rape victim it's her fault because she shouldn't have been there, or she sinfully provoked it by dressing loosely.
Wut.
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Old October 27 2013, 03:20 AM   #117
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
Tuvok wrote: View Post
GoRe Star wrote: View Post
It's kind of like telling a rape victim it's her fault because she shouldn't have been there, or she sinfully provoked it by dressing loosely.
Wow...

Really , your using a rape analogy.

That was unexpected.

I mean , really?

Isn't more like getting a short tempered, psychotic landlord who can enter your house at any time do what ever he wants take over your property.

With a long history of territorial behaviour and bullying and oppressing and attempted genocide ( Bajor). And then crying surprise and foul when said landlord does the kind of thing they are known for, like oppressive violence and really terrible things.

And not moving, when you told by your previous landlord that hey to stop a fight with said bastard ,he's taking over your rent.

Why they stayed was out of pride and a sense of being screwed over , which they where. However they could have moved, space Is big.

It's not their fault they go screwed over, but hey if you have the option to move and not drag your previous Landlord into a war. Then maybe you should move.
you are completely missing my point. The cardassians never lived up to their end of the treaty. The colonists were allowed to live on those planets by both the cardassians and the federation. The cardassians pledged that they would not interfere with the colonists. However they did so and behind the federations back.

the federation looses all credibility by providing support to a government that as you described has a history of genocide, bullying and oppression instead of supporting their own people.

the federation could have easily taken the cardassians on in an armed conflict. i mean they went to war with the klingons over cardassia only a couple of years after the treaty was signed.

And even if the colonists had moved, would that have been enough for the cardassians? given their history, probably not. the federation gave up a lot to satisfy a government who had no real intention of maintaining the peace.
So your saying if the Colonist had moved out of Cardassian owned space the Cardassians would have followed them all over the Universe because what, they where bored.

The Federation didn't go to war with the Klingons over Cardarssia. They ended in war because of it, there's a difference between having one by choice and having one thrust apoun you, say by renegade colonists bio-terrorism .

The Federation didn't give up have their space they gave up contested territory to prevent an unneccesay war. Why go to war where hundreds of thousands can die when all you can give up a sector.

In the end the Marquis ended up in Cardarssian space away from Federation Influence, considering what they do to their own people what did they expect to happen to those they consider trespassers. Where they so na´ve that they believed the threat of a Federation no longer part of the sector would keep the Cardarssians in check.

Then , again this is the same lot of people who thought they could steal Federation supplies, attack Federation ships and create new homes for themselves by Bio-nuking Cardassian colonies without reprisal.
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Old October 27 2013, 03:52 AM   #118
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Tuvok, your first paragraph is a complete misunderstanding of what i was saying and it's putting words in my mouth.

I was talking about hypothetically if the colonists had moved when asked to do so by the federation, would the cardassians have been happy with that, or given their history would they have taken it as a sign of weakness and asked for more concessions.

The territories were not contested until the treaty of 2370 which stipulated that each side would exchange worlds. The colony on dorvan v for example had been establish in 2350, 20 years before the treaty and at that time was part of federation territory. The federation gave it up.

The cardassians forced the creation of the maquis through their actions towards the colonists. The colonists were peaceful and were not doing anything until the cardassians began to target them. Just because they chose to live in cardassian space doesn't mean they deserved to be starved, raped and murdered.
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Old October 27 2013, 04:16 AM   #119
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Tuvok wrote: View Post
Wow...

Really , your using a rape analogy.

That was unexpected.

I mean , really?
It's called victim blaming.

Tuvok wrote: View Post

The Federation didn't give up have their space they gave up contested territory to prevent an unneccesay war. Why go to war where hundreds of thousands can die when all you can give up a sector.

In the end the Marquis ended up in Cardarssian space away from Federation Influence, considering what they do to their own people what did they expect to happen to those they consider trespassers. Where they so na´ve that they believed the threat of a Federation no longer part of the sector would keep the Cardarssians in check.
A guy named Chamberlain thought some minor provinces were worth appeasing an aggressive power and gave them away to avoid a small war. That sure worked out well and his nation didn't end up in a huge war a couple years later. Cardassia and the Federation certainly didn't end up in a bigger war than some minor border planets a few years later. Most expansionist powers are quite reasonable after all.

Also, it's Maquis. No R. Named after the French resistance during World War 2. If you're going to profess an opinion on the subject, it's best to at least take the effort to spell it correctly.

Next, watch subject material before making factual statements. In Journey's End, Gul Evek specifically said they'd be left alone. That's why Picard agreed to it. So when the Cardassians started terrorizing them, they had every right to fight back.

That was the fundamental problem with the treaty. It solved nothing. It didn't stop the fighting, and the Federation just lost all credibility along with those colonists and territories. It didn't even stop a war given Cardassia attacked the second they got themselves an ally. A small war a few years ago(it took the Klingons all of ten seconds to beat them) would've saved the Federation a LOT of trouble. That Chamberlain guy probably wishes he fought a small war a few years earlier today and saved the rest of the world a lot of trouble.
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Old October 27 2013, 04:18 AM   #120
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

A note about the Cardassians and using their joining the Dominion as "proof" that they were predestined to draw the Federation into another war.

Remember that in the intervening time between the Federation-Cardassian War and the Dominion War Central Command fell and was replaced by the Detapa Council. The Klingons decided to use this as an excuse to conquer vast swathes of Cardassian territory, and the implication is that Dukat used the fear and chaos to dangle the carrot of Dominion membership in front of Cardassia, removing the civilian government and putting himself in charge. True, the Founders were playing the Klingons and Cardassians for fools, but who knows, would Cardassia have joined the Dominion without Gowron's bloodlust?
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