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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 24 2013, 01:31 PM   #106
KaraBear
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
He broke the treaty of Algernon and the Prime Directive in Nightingale

A more alert captain would have busted him down to the enlisted ranks.
I don't believe he was acting as a Starfleet office in that case. He was just getting them to their destination. Prime directive wouldnt really apply
He's always a Starfleet officer. Getting these folks home seemed okay. Then it turned out that they were "gunrunners" trying to bust through a blockade and reverse the direction of a wars all but immediately foregone conclusion.

Cloaks aren't weapons!

Bullshit, if I was invisible I could do anything to you and you could't stop me. Invisibility is a gamechanger, and Invisibility with a gun is a winning hand.

Starfleet's non interference policy (which may or may not be the prime directive) says that they cannot get involved in a war they don't already have a horse in.

Harry didn't just get involved a little, he delivered weapons that would prolong the war for YEARS leading to the deaths of further billions until the planet belonging to the other lot is about to fall to the oppression of an unstoppable invisible enemy.

How is that not altering the balance of power?

Those actions undertook by Ensign Kim would also make him responsible for several War crimes as yet uncommitted, and as I said earlier lead to a censure from the Romulans asking why Harry was fiddling with illegal technology he was not allowed to touch or acknowledge the existence of?
there are situations where the prime directive doesn't apply, situations where a warp capable species asked for help fall under that

memory alpha has a lot of info about the prime directive, it was interesting to read, here is the list of situations they have wher the prime directive doesn't apply
The society already knew of and contacted the Federation (e.g., seeking assistance; treaty matters) (TNG: "Datalore", "Deja Q")
The society sent a general distress call to any space-faring cultures who might pick it up (TOS: "Miri"; TNG: "Pen Pals")
A material injustice involving a Federation citizen would occur absent the interference (TNG: "Justice")
Regarding minimal interference, compare the interference by Picard in TNG: "Justice" to the interference by Jameson described in TNG: "Too Short a Season". In both instances Federation citizens were being held in an arguably unjust manner. But Picard's actions were the removal of a single condemned prisoner without loss of life or technology transfer, albeit with the planting of seeds of doubt regarding inflexible laws. Jameson, on the other hand, transferred technology which resulted in decades of war and millions of deaths. Picard's actions were much less intrusive in the Edo society.
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Old July 24 2013, 03:50 PM   #107
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

This isn't my first rodeo.

You should use your own words.

Whoever wrote that is a moron who couldn't cotton onto a simple fact.

You can "conceivably" do anything to an alien species they could do to themselves or could do for themselves.

Stargate explained that well enough when they detailed why Anubis was allowed godlike powers to help him take over the galaxy. It's shit he could do before he was ascended, so it's still magic zappy stuff he's allowed to do after he's descended, even though Daniel was punished for locking horns with the Death God because at the time our third favourite archaeologist was Ascended and not allowed to interfere.

If you don't alter the balance of power, then you're not breaking the Prime Directive.

Lets examine when these aliens started asking for commodities/services off Voyager/Harry/Seven which they couldn't supply for themselves if they hadn't been hobbled by their unforeseen accident...

1. They wanted to go home.

Janeway gave them Harry because it's probable that they could get home without Harry's help, but why be an asshole?

2. Later Captain Kim discovered he was transporting a single super weapon that didn't work properly or often.

He and Seven fixed and upgraded the cloak so that it worked well almost all the time... Something that was beyond the technical abilities of the scientists behind the indigenous creation of this technology.

That's criminal. He should have cut his losses and taken an escape pod and floated away rather than run guns for liars who are manipulating him.

3. Then Captain Kim finds thousands more cloaks in the hold. It's not a humanitarian mission after all.

He was lied to and He should have cut his losses and taken an escape pod and floated away rather than keep eating their shitty lies. Continuing on from that point would have been criminal. Harry continued on because they gave him a comfy chair.

4. Then there's the blockade. Captain Kim's ship full of cloaking-systems/weapons have to secret itself through a blockade gagging to arm/upgrade a planet bound fleet, which they could not do with out Kim's help. He Captain Protoned it, and won out against all adversity... Even though the adversity bared him absolutely no malice and were a backward child race generations behind the Federation, if their technology was comparable to when the Federation (noticed that the Romulans had) first discovered clocking technology.

That's criminal. He should have taken an escape pod and floated away rather than become a mercenary reversing the out come of a war siding with liars who are manipulating him into being their knuckle dragging enforcer.

(I'm kinda repeating myself, but you gotta know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em, know when to walk away and know when to run. Kim was too busy Ahabbing it, wearing big boy pants to realise that he was going down a very dark path just like Captain Tracy arming the alien Communists with the modern phasers.)

Kim didn't know enough true facts to pick a side, and really the side he did pick were liars who manipulated him and he was too stupid to do any thing productive with the anger he flt about being lied to and manipulated other than continue to be manipulated... And so what if he decided to change sides and hand the cloaks over to the aliens manning the blockade? What if they were even bigger assholes?

If you lay down with assholes you wake up smelling of farts.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:31 PM   #108
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

I apologize for bumping the thread, but have been really active here lately and wanted to talk about my own thoughts on Endgame.

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
I hope I am not alone amidst legions of Trek fans here, when I assert that Endgame was an awesome episode. Fine, I see there are detractors. I have encountered Endgame on "Top 5 worst voyager episodes" lists. To each his own. I personally would include it in my top ten FAVORITE episodes of VOY.

Am I missing something? Was I high when I watched it?

I am completely confounded as to why people hate this episode. I love it dearly. I'm sure at least someone out there likes it as much as I.

Love or hate... please enlighten me.
Good to see that somebody else lists this episode among their favorites.

I love time travel episodes, the Tom/B'Elanna relationship, Seven, Chakotay, Janeway, and Barclay, and this episode has parts in it that deal with all of the above.

I also really enjoy the Seven/Chakotay story, although I'll freely admit that it could've been set up much better than it was.

I honestly can't think of a better way to have ended Voyager than with a character-centric time travel story focused largely on the Captain, which is exactly how they ended TNG, and personally think that Endgame matches All Good Things qualitatively. It also doesn't hurt that the episode uses the same future uniforms as AGT.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:57 PM   #109
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

^ I'm the opposite. I think this show could've used a lot less AGT. I mean we see the alternate future of VOY crew on Earth, but by the episodes end that timeline is erased. I think they wasted an opportunity and our time by showing us something that was going to be inconsequential and different from what actually happens by episodes end. Yes it gives future Janeway motivations, but it's not about Future Janeway.

Things I wanted to see:

1. I wanted to see the VOY crew actually make it to Earth, and set foot on it!

2. I wanted to see how the crew adjusted to being back on Earth after 7 years in deep space.

3. I wanted to see how the characters (especially the Maqui) dealt with this post-Dominion War Federation.

4. I wanted to know if the former VOY Maqui were going to be charged or face any punitive actions.

5. I wanted to see Janeway face the Starfleet brass regarding the exabytes of information she gathered in the DQ. Also to see if any of the admirals would verbally accost Janeway for her rash decision to strand herself, her crew and the Maqui in the DQ in the first place.
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Old October 26 2013, 07:14 PM   #110
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

None of that stuff is really important, though. Endgame was structured in a way that provides the perfect 'capstone' to what Voyager is and was, and both it and Caretaker end more or less the same way: with Janeway having made a decision that alters the lives of those serving underneath her command.
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Old October 26 2013, 07:44 PM   #111
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

If you want to say underlings, just say underlings.

I like Time travel stories too, but this was a cover of Timeless.

Been there, done that.

But do you know what really pissed me off?

How they wasted Vaughn Armstrong.

He could have played that Time travelling Romulan again from Eye of the Needle, or set up Enterprise with Admiral Forests greatgrandson if they were that far along in the production, but no. Someone, probably above Berman wanted to subtly advertise the Las Vegas Star Trek Experience "exhibit" by using a Voyager's dying breath to legitimise that cashcow using one of their characters.

Which is easily more vulgar than sticking TNG characters into the final of Enterprise.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:49 PM   #112
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Admiral Janeway is like this AMAZING present at the end of 7 years of Voyager.


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Old October 26 2013, 11:28 PM   #113
Guy Gardener
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Kate stops dying her hair for a week, and you think it's a present?
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Old October 26 2013, 11:35 PM   #114
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Yes. I am easily pleased.
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Old October 26 2013, 11:50 PM   #115
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Okay, all we need to send to teacake for Christmas is a box of Clairol.
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Old October 26 2013, 11:52 PM   #116
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

I will take Kate Mulgrew no matter what colour her hair is.. blonde, brown, grey, RED.
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Old October 27 2013, 12:00 AM   #117
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Re: Endgame was awesome!



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Old October 27 2013, 12:13 AM   #118
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

The question that VOY asks is why didn't the the Future starfleet who moniotr the time stream (that VOY intrdouced) didn't just undo her chnages. After all the change by brining VOY home early would have affected the lives of possible billions.
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Old October 27 2013, 12:27 AM   #119
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Because it was meant to be. However they determine that.

Maybe if they had stopped her from tampering they wouldn't exist?
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Old October 27 2013, 12:35 AM   #120
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

They didn't intervene during the events of Timeless, either, although we know they were aware of them thanks to a reference from Relativity, which, incidentally, also contains what could retroactively be considered a reference to the events of Endgame.
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