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Old October 25 2013, 02:57 AM   #76
Jan
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Re: Crusade Question

So, Kirk...does *this* sound like a puppet? (Potential spoilers of a movie you're determined not to see because of your own overthinking)

"The Humans I think knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands....They were.........magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage, but in the end, they ran out of time."

Emperor Londo Mollari. "In the Beginning"

As for your question about Vir and keepers/Drakh...read the books. Don't expect us to tell you so that you can come up with some other uninformed opinion.

Jan
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Old October 25 2013, 04:40 AM   #77
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Re: Crusade Question

Jan, perhaps the keeper was not controlling Londo when he gave that speech (about the humans) simply because it had no reason to? Londo was speaking about the past. There would be no reason for the Drakh to care about such things, so the keeper went ahead and let Londo tell the truth about it.
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Old October 25 2013, 04:49 AM   #78
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Re: Crusade Question

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Jan, perhaps the keeper was not controlling Londo when he gave that speech (about the humans) simply because it had no reason to? Londo was speaking about the past. There would be no reason for the Drakh to care about such things, so the keeper went ahead and let Londo tell the truth about it.
Isn't
from the framing story? Or is that from War Without End?
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Old October 25 2013, 04:51 AM   #79
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Re: Crusade Question

^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?
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Old October 25 2013, 04:55 AM   #80
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Re: Crusade Question

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?
Why not? It's accepted (and expected) Centauri behavior, but, he may not have stated it any way in ItB, I thought I remembered some indication, could be wrong
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Old October 25 2013, 05:01 AM   #81
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Re: Crusade Question

Mr Light wrote: View Post
Dureena becomes a Technomage under Galen's guidance. Since the novels show that the Mages can't make more Mages without the Shadows, the Mages must learn this ability over the course of the series.
I though Gideon was supposed to, and that was part of how Galen resurrects him.
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Old October 25 2013, 09:31 AM   #82
Jan
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Re: Crusade Question

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Jan, perhaps the keeper was not controlling Londo when he gave that speech (about the humans) simply because it had no reason to? Londo was speaking about the past. There would be no reason for the Drakh to care about such things, so the keeper went ahead and let Londo tell the truth about it.
Exactly my point. I posted that in response to this bit from Kirk:
Maybe the keeper is making Londo tell this false story, so the whole events of the movie are invalid and didn't happen, or happened differently. Puppet Londo just raises a lot of questions about wether or not In The Beginning is actually talking about canon events or a warped version given my a puppet Londo.


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Old October 25 2013, 11:20 AM   #83
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Re: Crusade Question

It seems that there must be such a thing as a fear of depictions of mind control -- possibly similar to automatonophobia or pupaphobia perhaps.
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Old October 25 2013, 12:39 PM   #84
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Re: Crusade Question

<<I though Gideon was supposed to, and that was part of how Galen resurrects him. >>

The Apocalypse Box is what resurrects him, apparently. It wasn't done with him yet.
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Old October 25 2013, 02:29 PM   #85
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Re: Crusade Question

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?
The only reference to alcohol in ITB is at the very end, after the kids have left:
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Old October 25 2013, 03:02 PM   #86
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Re: Crusade Question

Lindley wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?
The only reference to alcohol in ITB is at the very end, after the kids have left:
Ah, OK,
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Old October 25 2013, 03:56 PM   #87
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Re: Crusade Question

Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.

The Drakh don't care one whit if Londo tells a story about the Minbari War to a pair of children. Just like they don't care if he scratches his arse or exiles his wife (long story.) If it doesn't directly effect their agenda, then it's not relevant.

As for why the Drakh don't put keepers on Vir, Delenn, Sheridan etc: The Drakh are not omnipresent. Hell, I don't think they're even that numerous. They can't just stroll into Tuzanor without the Minbari A) noticing and B) killing them. As for Vir...you'll have to read the books. Deal with it!
Jan wrote: View Post
So, Kirk...does *this* sound like a puppet? (Potential spoilers of a movie you're determined not to see because of your own overthinking)

"The Humans I think knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands....They were.........magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage, but in the end, they ran out of time."

Emperor Londo Mollari. "In the Beginning"

As for your question about Vir and keepers/Drakh...read the books. Don't expect us to tell you so that you can come up with some other uninformed opinion.

Jan
Let's see if he can be arsed to watch a 3 minute clip.



It's worth keeping in mind that these are the words of a man who knows full well that he *will* die within the next few hours, with his best friend's hands around his throat.

I'm actually a little temped to quote something else Londo says to a certain human General in this film about "efficiency"...but maybe that'd be pushing things just a little too far.

Last edited by Reverend; October 25 2013 at 04:07 PM.
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Old October 25 2013, 04:02 PM   #88
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Re: Crusade Question

Another reason not to put keepers on everyone: They become useless as soon as they are widely known. Their greatest strength is their secrecy. The more high-profile people who are kept, the more likely they will be discovered.
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Old October 25 2013, 06:13 PM   #89
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Re: Crusade Question

Reverend wrote: View Post
Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.
Is that speculation on your part (in which case it’s no more valid or invalid than what Kirk55555 suggested) or something which is mentioned in the books.

Either way though, sticking with what is seen and said on screen. Captain Jack (Racing Mars) had a keeper, and while he could drop some subtle hints that no one picked up on at the time, it was essentially controlling what he said and did. Swapping ident cards, lying, trying to shoot the leader of the Mars resistance. Dialog from that episode also points out the level of control they have - and it goes a bit beyond just correcting wrong behaviour.

Captain Jack (after it was partially removed) - “I wanted to warn you, but I couldn’t say anything. It wouldn’t let me”

Dr Franklin - “This entity can cut into the neuro pathways and override them. Some of the micro fibres are fresh, so my guess is it’s control over a given host grows as it does.”

Londo would have had one on him for a couple of decades, or there abouts.
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Old October 25 2013, 06:20 PM   #90
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Re: Crusade Question

Reverend wrote: View Post
Again, the keepers aren't that smart. They're a choke chain meant to correct wrong behaviour. They *cannot* take total control of a person's mind, nor dictate their every word and they're only as cunning or attentive as the Drakh at the other end of the link.

The Drakh don't care one whit if Londo tells a story about the Minbari War to a pair of children. Just like they don't care if he scratches his arse or exiles his wife (long story.) If it doesn't directly effect their agenda, then it's not relevant.

As for why the Drakh don't put keepers on Vir, Delenn, Sheridan etc: The Drakh are not omnipresent. Hell, I don't think they're even that numerous. They can't just stroll into Tuzanor without the Minbari A) noticing and B) killing them. As for Vir...you'll have to read the books. Deal with it!
Jan wrote: View Post
So, Kirk...does *this* sound like a puppet? (Potential spoilers of a movie you're determined not to see because of your own overthinking)

"The Humans I think knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands....They were.........magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage, but in the end, they ran out of time."

Emperor Londo Mollari. "In the Beginning"

As for your question about Vir and keepers/Drakh...read the books. Don't expect us to tell you so that you can come up with some other uninformed opinion.

Jan
It's worth keeping in mind that these are the words of a man who knows full well that he *will* die within the next few hours, with his best friend's hands around his throat.

I'm actually a little temped to quote something else Londo says to a certain human General in this film about "efficiency"...but maybe that'd be pushing things just a little too far.
I'm at the library and don’t have headphones, so I can’t watch the clip. Either way, all he did was complement humans. I know the keeper wasn’t constantly going, just whenever it mattered, so even sober I doubt it would care about him complimenting humans to only a few people in private. Now, it probably wouldn’t let him say good things in public, but one sppech to a few people probably wouldn’t matter. I still think it controls more than just some leash, but it obviously wasn’t 100% 24/7, or he’d never be able to drink to put it to sleep. It was probably more like 95% in control when he was in public, 100% when it needed to, and only in control in private when it needed to. That still makes him a puppet, just one that could occasionally do minor things of its own free will.
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