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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old October 24 2013, 08:42 PM   #31
BillJ
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Personally, I like to think a fleet captain is a grade between captain and commodore with the rank insignia being three full stripes.
It could be. But it could also be a rank above Commodore since we've only seen "Fleet Captain" mentioned once in the entirety of Trek.

It could also be that "Fleet Captain" may be a special rank created solely for Christopher Pike as recognition for something unique he did in service of the Federation/Starfleet.

We just know so little about the rank, we can let our imaginations run wild.
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Old October 24 2013, 08:53 PM   #32
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

I always just assumed that a Fleet Captain IS a Commodore. Alternate names for the same rank.
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Old October 24 2013, 10:30 PM   #33
Duncan MacLeod
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

BillJ wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Personally, I like to think a fleet captain is a grade between captain and commodore with the rank insignia being three full stripes.
It could be. But it could also be a rank above Commodore since we've only seen "Fleet Captain" mentioned once in the entirety of Trek.

It could also be that "Fleet Captain" may be a special rank created solely for Christopher Pike as recognition for something unique he did in service of the Federation/Starfleet.

We just know so little about the rank, we can let our imaginations run wild.
Twice.

You've forgotten Fleet Captain Garth.
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Old October 24 2013, 10:51 PM   #34
BillJ
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Personally, I like to think a fleet captain is a grade between captain and commodore with the rank insignia being three full stripes.
It could be. But it could also be a rank above Commodore since we've only seen "Fleet Captain" mentioned once in the entirety of Trek.

It could also be that "Fleet Captain" may be a special rank created solely for Christopher Pike as recognition for something unique he did in service of the Federation/Starfleet.

We just know so little about the rank, we can let our imaginations run wild.
Twice.

You've forgotten Fleet Captain Garth.
Right you are. I forgot about Whom Gods Destroy.

Party pooper!
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Old October 25 2013, 08:39 AM   #35
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

The probable answer to "Is Wesley the permanent captain of the Lexington?" question in my mind is answered by the probable answer to the question, "why is Wesley wearing a Starfleet Command patch?"

Since "The Omega Glory" was filmed after "The Ultimate Computer," and Bob Justman sent his now famous 'under penalty of death!' memo (basically saying "All starship members wear the same patch") to Bill Theiss on the 18th of Dec 67 ("The Ultimate Computer" finished shooting on the 14th), the answer can't be that Justman's memo influenced the selection. Even if Justman had clued Theiss in before he wrote the memo, wouldn't Theiss then have Wesley wearing the "starship arrowhead" patch?

Based on what we know from other episodes, I speculate that the "The Ultimate Computer" writing and/or production team consciously decided Wesley really worked for Starfleet Command and was given temporary command of the Lexington just for this special mission (I say special because nearly half of the starships in the fleet were involved!) and conveyed that to Theiss.

If that's not the case, why wouldn't Theiss have just assumed Wesley was the Lexington's permanent captain and then created a unique Lexington patch for Wesley's uniform, just like he had for Decker's Constellation uniform (and would do just a week later for Tracey's and Dr. Carter's Exeter uniforms)?

It has been suggested perhaps the Lexington crew wore the same patch as members of Starfleet Command. While I admit what I wrote above is all speculation, and I don't suggest my speculation is more insightful than anyone elses... that solution just seems too contrived for me based on what we see in all the other episodes that show non-Enterprise starship and Starfleet Command personnel.

As to what happened to the Lexington's real captain? Maybe he was given temporary shore duty while the M-5 tests were carried out. Why not, we saw that play out--albeit under false pretenses--for "The Menagerie Part 1:"

SPOCK: This is First Officer Spock. Per Starfleet orders this date, I have been placed in temporary command of the Enterprise. While our destination is secret, our mission is relatively simple. Starbase Command has assigned Captain Kirk medical rest leave until our return. His instructions are that you will obey my orders as you would his. First Officer out.
MCCOY: What's going on around here? Who said Jim needed a medical rest leave?

It's also possible the Lexington was between captains... again, that's speculation... that and three dollars gets you a large coffee.
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Last edited by CrazyMatt; October 25 2013 at 08:49 AM.
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Old October 28 2013, 12:15 PM   #36
Robert Comsol
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Since "The Omega Glory" was filmed after "The Ultimate Computer," and Bob Justman sent his now famous 'under penalty of death!' memo (basically saying "All starship members wear the same patch") to Bill Theiss on the 18th of Dec 67 ("The Ultimate Computer" finished shooting on the 14th), the answer can't be that Justman's memo influenced the selection. Even if Justman had clued Theiss in before he wrote the memo, wouldn't Theiss then have Wesley wearing the "starship arrowhead" patch?
I think the decisive question remains why they still had a unique insignia for the Exeter Crew (Captain Tracey, senior M.D. Carter) after Bob Justman's "death threats"...

I'd guess he was pretty upset after that and did not allocate any budget for the Defiant uniforms in "The Tholian Web" (so they were forced to have almost all the extras face the floor).

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
As to what happened to the Lexington's real captain? Maybe he was given temporary shore duty while the M-5 tests were carried out. Why not, we saw that play out--albeit under false pretenses--for "The Menagerie Part 1:"Starbase Command has assigned Captain Kirk medical rest leave until our return."
"Medical rest" suggests unfit for duty, doesn't it? Theoretically Commodore Wesley could have just monitored the war games standing next to the Lexington's captain.
And a close up of the Lexington's captain with a panicking Wesley pushing into the frame / taking over command would have added tension and drama to the shooting of these scenes, IMHO.

I'm not sure whether Wesley's rise to governor has to be regarded as a degradation. Let's keep in mind that Commodore Stone had himself once been a starship captain, and then spent the rest of his career overseeing repairs of starships.

Bob
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Old October 28 2013, 12:28 PM   #37
Mario de Monti
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
On the other hand, the M-5 had been already tested in simulation and everybody expected this to be an uneventful practical test. I can't imagine one good explanation why the (assumed original) captain of the Lexington was not considered fit for such a menial task.
This would qualify quite a career blow, IMHO, and if this captain of the Lexington wasn't qualified to lead the ships in the war games excercise I'd have to ask what that starship captain was qualified for in the first place.
It may simply be dictated by Starfleet regulations, that commanding more than one vessel must only be performed by flag officers. In that case the Lexingtonīs regular Captain just wasnīt permitted to lead the exercise, regardless of his achievements and qualifications.

Mario
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Old October 28 2013, 01:08 PM   #38
Robert Comsol
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

^^ That's the best explanation I've heard thus far. Sounds logical.

What would be the explanation for the higher command chair (better noticable in the screencap from "Mirror, Mirror")?

Does the Lexington happen to be Starfleet's flagship (which the Enterprise is apparently in the mirror universe) or does the extra piece making the command chair higher constitute the "flag" a flag officer transfers to the command ship (most likely a piece of inventory every starship has onboard, I'm not suggesting that Wesley carried it with him ).

Bob
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Old October 28 2013, 01:36 PM   #39
Mario de Monti
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

To be honest, I wouldnīt read much into the high back of the chair. I mean, why reserve this higher back for flag officers? What possible advantage can it bring? More comfort? Maybe. But why deprive the Captains of this privilege? They spend much more time sitting in it on their 5-year-missions, than flag officers do during the occasional war game. Other than more comfort I canīt really see any other advantage to this type of chair. On the contrary, you canīt even see whatīs going on behind you! Wesley always has to swivel his chair around when addressing someone at a console there, he canīt just look over his shoulder.
Finally, the crew will know, when their ship is commanded by a flag officer, they wonīt need a different chair to visually remind them of that

IMO itīs just the personal preference of the Lexingtonīs CO. Other than that, I canīt come up with an explanation that makes sense in-universe.

Mario
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Old October 28 2013, 05:09 PM   #40
CrazyMatt
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
It may simply be dictated by Starfleet regulations, that commanding more than one vessel must only be performed by flag officers. In that case the Lexingtonīs regular Captain just wasnīt permitted to lead the exercise, regardless of his achievements and qualifications.

Mario
That makes sense to me.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:12 PM   #41
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
To be honest, I wouldnīt read much into the high back of the chair. I mean, why reserve this higher back for flag officers? What possible advantage can it bring? More comfort? Maybe. But why deprive the Captains of this privilege? They spend much more time sitting in it on their 5-year-missions, than flag officers do during the occasional war game. Other than more comfort I canīt really see any other advantage to this type of chair. On the contrary, you canīt even see whatīs going on behind you! Wesley always has to swivel his chair around when addressing someone at a console there, he canīt just look over his shoulder.
Finally, the crew will know, when their ship is commanded by a flag officer, they wonīt need a different chair to visually remind them of that

IMO itīs just the personal preference of the Lexingtonīs CO. Other than that, I canīt come up with an explanation that makes sense in-universe.

Mario
While we can speculate on what the 'dramatic' purpose was, the actual real life production purpose is that they wanted to make the Lexington's bridge look different than the Enterprise's... the same reason they changed the screen panels above the communications and science stations to make them different than the Enterprise's.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:21 PM   #42
Mario de Monti
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
While we can speculate on what the 'dramatic' purpose was, the actual real life production purpose is that they wanted to make the Lexington's bridge look different than the Enterprise's... the same reason they changed the screen panels above the communications and science stations to make them different than the Enterprise's.
My thoughts as well. But Robert Comsol was looking for an in-universe explanation and that to me seems to be a lot more difficult.
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Old October 28 2013, 05:49 PM   #43
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Based on what we know from other episodes, I speculate that the "The Ultimate Computer" writing and/or production team consciously decided Wesley really worked for Starfleet Command and was given temporary command of the Lexington just for this special mission (I say special because nearly half of the starships in the fleet were involved!) and conveyed that to Theiss.
More likely someone in the wardrobe dept. remembered that previous commodores (or four out of five, anyway) wore the Starbase/Starfleet Command badge so they went with that and gave it no more thought.

I still think the simplest explanation in-universe is that Wesley was CO of Lexington, like Decker and Constellation, but as he was acting in a higher capacity as task force commander he wore the badge associated with higher command.
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Old October 28 2013, 06:53 PM   #44
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post

I still think the simplest explanation in-universe is that Wesley was CO of Lexington, like Decker and Constellation, but as he was acting in a higher capacity as task force commander he wore the badge associated with higher command.
That actually seems more convoluted than he was a flag officer commanding the task force.
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Old October 28 2013, 07:03 PM   #45
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

BillJ wrote: View Post
That actually seems more convoluted than he was a flag officer commanding the task force.
I don't think so; it accounts for Decker's situation, the difference in badges, Wesley giving helm orders and the absence of another captain for Lexington.
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