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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old October 24 2013, 02:43 AM   #16
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Does anyone know offhand whether any 'captains' of lesser ships in Star Trek were shown to be of rank less than captain?
Jadzia has been shown in command of the Defiant, and was called Captain at that time (even though her actual rank was LCDR).
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Old October 24 2013, 03:26 AM   #17
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

galad2003 wrote: View Post
The only Commodore I know of in the current US Navy is a commander of a submarine squadron. The captain of a submarine is an 0-5 rank (Commander). He is called captain because Navy convention is anyone in charge of a vessel is called captain.
The US Navy has a number of positions for captains that carry the title of commodore besides COMSUBRON: destroyer squadron, amphibious squadron, mine countermeasures squadron and so on, even commanders of construction (Seabee) regiments.

I don't know for sure but I think if a commodore was on board a boat and the captain was incapable of command the XO would take over command of the vessel not the Commodore. Same goes for admiral/captain aboard an Aircraft Carrier.
That's right, succession to command would go through the vessels own chain of command, which an admiral would not be part of.
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Old October 24 2013, 08:42 AM   #18
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

This is one of the issues that hopefully (!) the second season edition of "These Are The Voyages" tackles.

A few thoughts:

1. Decker seems to be the captain of the Constellation, certainly. He records a "captain's log" and calls himself the captain when he explains to Kirk why he's the only member of the crew left aboard:

"Oh, I had to beam them down. We were dead. No power, our phasers useless. I stayed behind, (the) last man.... captain, 'last man aboard the ship.' That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it? And then it hit again and the transporter went out. There they were.... down there, and I'm, I'm up here."

2. I suppose there are certain starship captains--fleet captains, maybe--that had overall command of a particular sector, or group of ships (though, not necessarily other starships). Decker would qualify for that.

3. Wesley is a whole other matter than Decker. First, we have to revisit some old ground for my point to make sense.

We know (or can smartly infer) from other threads that Decker's uniform got a new patch that was meant, I believe, to signify that he was a member of the Constellation crew. I suppose it could mean that he's a fleet captain equivalent, but the fact that Capt. Tracey got his own unique Exeter ship patch when we know he was a 'Kirk equivalent' leads me to believe the former argument holds.

So if Wesley is the captain of the Lexington, why... oh why does he wear a Starfleet Command patch? Shouldn't he have a separate patch along with the rest of the Lexington crew? Or if Decker's patch meant he's a fleet captain, why doesn't Wesley wear the same patch?

I think Wesley was a member of Starfleet Command and a former starship commander--perhaps even as a commodore--and for some reason he replaced the Lexington's captain for the M-5 test mission.
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Old October 24 2013, 11:41 AM   #19
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
So if Wesley is the captain of the Lexington, why... oh why does he wear a Starfleet Command patch? Shouldn't he have a separate patch along with the rest of the Lexington crew? Or if Decker's patch meant he's a fleet captain, why doesn't Wesley wear the same patch?

I think Wesley was a member of Starfleet Command and a former starship commander--perhaps even as a commodore--and for some reason he replaced the Lexington's captain for the M-5 test mission.
Which is a rationalization I find myself unable to believe.

If we have a look at TMP it already took Admiral Kirk obviously quite a lot of persuasion to replace Will Decker as the captain of the Enterprise - in a crisis situation where an unknown intruder was vaporizing (digitizing) everything in its path to Earth.

On the other hand, the M-5 had been already tested in simulation and everybody expected this to be an uneventful practical test. I can't imagine one good explanation why the (assumed original) captain of the Lexington was not considered fit for such a menial task.
This would qualify quite a career blow, IMHO, and if this captain of the Lexington wasn't qualified to lead the ships in the war games excercise I'd have to ask what that starship captain was qualified for in the first place.

Next, the command chair of the Lexington is noticably higher than the Enterprise's (and of the other starships we will see next like Exeter and Defiant).
Since "The Omega Glory" was produced right after "The Ultimate Computer" it doesn't seem to have been just a means to differentiate the command bridges (the actors sitting in the command chair provide sufficient clarity).

Personally, I've taken this as a hint that during TOS the Lexington is the flagship of Starfleet. This brought me to the next question, i.e. is there some kind of Starfleet tradition honoring the (current) flagship.

IMHO, the previously most accomplished starship is honored by adopting its insignia as the Starfleet uniform insignia for a period of something like seven years or so.

Hence, the Starfleet flower is the insignia of the Starship Lexington and Bob Wesley has been and still is its current commander.

Bob
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Old October 24 2013, 02:02 PM   #20
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Personally, I've taken this as a hint that during TOS the Lexington is the flagship of Starfleet. This brought me to the next question, i.e. is there some kind of Starfleet tradition honoring the (current) flagship.

IMHO, the previously most accomplished starship is honored by adopting its insignia as the Starfleet uniform insignia for a period of something like seven years or so.

Hence, the Starfleet flower is the insignia of the Starship Lexington and Bob Wesley has been and still is its current commander.
I think a simpler explanation would be that when the commodore is acting in the capacity of a flag officer, commanding multiple vessels, they wear (or have the option of wearing) a badge that reflects that level of authority.
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Old October 24 2013, 02:06 PM   #21
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

I've always looked as commodores as just being senior captains in Starfleet, capable of commanding a ship, a small taskforce of ships, or even a starbase.
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Old October 24 2013, 02:58 PM   #22
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
CrazyMatt wrote:

I think Wesley was a member of Starfleet Command and a former starship commander--perhaps even as a commodore--and for some reason he replaced the Lexington's captain for the M-5 test mission.
On the other hand, the M-5 had been already tested in simulation and everybody expected this to be an uneventful practical test. I can't imagine one good explanation why the (assumed original) captain of the Lexington was not considered fit for such a menial task.
This would qualify quite a career blow, IMHO, and if this captain of the Lexington wasn't qualified to lead the ships in the war games excercise I'd have to ask what that starship captain was qualified for in the first place.
I think Wesley was Starfleet's "man in charge" of the M-5 project. Its failure was likely a major blow to his career and why he was Governor of the Mantilles colony in TAS.

I don't believe he was the regular captain of the Lexington.
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Old October 24 2013, 05:57 PM   #23
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Possibly the Lexington was between commanders at that point, awaiting refit, and Wesley borrowed it for the M-5 test because of that?
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Old October 24 2013, 06:05 PM   #24
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Captain Jed R. wrote: View Post
Possibly the Lexington was between commanders at that point, awaiting refit, and Wesley borrowed it for the M-5 test because of that?
Kind of what I was thinking.
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Old October 24 2013, 06:25 PM   #25
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

In general could a Commodore be a recently promoted Captain who stays in command of his ship until a suitable position becomes available?
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Old October 24 2013, 08:12 PM   #26
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

A Commodore being something of a senior Captain could work assuming things were done differently in the future. Things do evolve including rank systems. Consider that both Wesley and Decker were older than Kirk and sufficient years of distinguished service got them the rank of Commodore while allowing them to retain a single vessel command if they so chose.

If so that now raises the question as to what is a Fleet Captain? Is it an actual rank or a position?
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Old October 24 2013, 08:24 PM   #27
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Just a general remark. A real-world Starfleet would have many more officers at all levels than any navy in history. There would be many more formations and assignments.

If today's naval ranks were handed down to such an organization, me, I'd expect new ranks to pop up in between older ranks, including if not especially above captain, as a direct result of this increase in complexity. Fleet captain and commodore could both fit that bill.
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Old October 24 2013, 08:25 PM   #28
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Yeah, it seems "Commodore" like "Yeoman" means something different in 23rd Century Starfleet than it did in 20th Century USN. I lean towards the former meaning something like a senior captain of some kind.
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Old October 24 2013, 08:29 PM   #29
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Just a general remark. A real-world Starfleet would have many more officers at all levels than any navy in history. There would be many more formations and assignments.

If today's naval ranks were handed down to such an organization, me, I'd expect new ranks to pop up in between older ranks, including if not especially above captain, as a direct result of this increase in complexity. Fleet captain and commodore could both fit that bill.
Whose to say "Fleet Captain" isn't a rank above Commodore?
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Old October 24 2013, 08:35 PM   #30
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Re: Commodores in command of Starships?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Just a general remark. A real-world Starfleet would have many more officers at all levels than any navy in history. There would be many more formations and assignments.

If today's naval ranks were handed down to such an organization, me, I'd expect new ranks to pop up in between older ranks, including if not especially above captain, as a direct result of this increase in complexity. Fleet captain and commodore could both fit that bill.
Whose to say "Fleet Captain" isn't a rank above Commodore?
Personally, I like to think a fleet captain is a grade between captain and commodore with the rank insignia being three full stripes.
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