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Old October 23 2013, 06:33 PM   #46
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Yanks wrote: View Post
. . .she does indicate to us by revealing her "mother's mother's mother's" purse that the story she has told us is true. . .


I had a different reaction when I reviewed this a few months back. Showing us the purse doesn't prove that any of what she told Archer and Trip was true. For all we know, the purse might have been purchased by T'Pol herself. The Velcro mention suggested to me that T'Pol had only studied enough of Earth history to fabricate the whole thing and fill it with convincing details. Her reply to Trip, "You asked me to tell you a story," also suggests she might have simply made it up on the spot.

Though it is a wonderfully executed episode, with picturesque location shooting and fine performances, and perhaps J. Paul Boehmer's best role in Star Trek.

You probably could have just started a new thread for this, rather than re-animating a dead one from over a year ago.
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Old October 23 2013, 06:41 PM   #47
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

I would indeed call it a filler episode, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. But to say it provides character insight to T'Pol is a stretch to say the least. Really the only bit of characterization we got from her(T'Mir doesn't count really) is that she's nostalgic and isn't above yanking Archer and Tucker's chains a bit. The rest of the episode -does- revolve around three characters that in the grand scheme of things have nothing to do with the series.

Now don't get me wrong, it was a fun episode and I enjoyed it. The Twilight Zone reference was my favorite part, though if the main cast is just going to be sitting at the table, they could've brought in the rest of the crew instead of just having it be the command clique of Trip, Archer and T'Pol and give them an appearance.

Velcro was invented before Sputnik as has been pointed out many times. I figured T'Mir just figured the logical thing to do was con a guy who didn't know better, knowing it really wouldn't change their evolution or technological progress. Knowing what happened to Mestral would be interesting, but dedicating a whole other episode to it would be a bit much.
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Old October 23 2013, 07:18 PM   #48
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Melakon wrote: View Post
I had a different reaction when I reviewed this a few months back. Showing us the purse doesn't prove that any of what she told Archer and Trip was true. For all we know, the purse might have been purchased by T'Pol herself. The Velcro mention suggested to me that T'Pol had only studied enough of Earth history to fabricate the whole thing and fill it with convincing details. Her reply to Trip, "You asked me to tell you a story," also suggests she might have simply made it up on the spot.
I don't agree (obviously ). There is no reason to show us that purse on Enterprise unless to strongly indicate that T'Pol's "story" was in fact true. If fact, T'Pol's service record did provide positive proof she went to Carbon Creek. T'Pol's comments to Trip were part of her personality. She made the same sort of comments in Harbinger while sipping a cup of tea. She did have a funny, if not dry sense of humor.

Melakon wrote: View Post
You probably could have just started a new thread for this, rather than re-animating a dead one from over a year ago.
Seems like starting new thread is accepted here. Every other board I've participated in frowns on starting another thread where one exists. Thanks

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I would indeed call it a filler episode, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. But to say it provides character insight to T'Pol is a stretch to say the least. Really the only bit of characterization we got from her(T'Mir doesn't count really) is that she's nostalgic and isn't above yanking Archer and Tucker's chains a bit.
It's a bit of a stretch if you don't believe (or don't want to believe) it to be true.

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Velcro was invented before Sputnik as has been pointed out many times. I figured T'Mir just figured the logical thing to do was con a guy who didn't know better, knowing it really wouldn't change their evolution or technological progress. Knowing what happened to Mestral would be interesting, but dedicating a whole other episode to it would be a bit much.
Nylon Velco however was not invented prior to Sputnik, as I indicated. Look it up, it fits nicely into what was portrayed in the episode. We ding them all the time for screwing things up, it's more than fair to credit them when they get it right.

I always wanted the series to touch base with Mestral again, sad they didn't. One option could have been for T'Pol to mention that he was present at First Contact, then returned to Vulcan.
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Old October 23 2013, 07:37 PM   #49
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Yanks wrote: View Post
I don't agree (obviously ). There is no reason to show us that purse on Enterprise unless to strongly indicate that T'Pol's "story" was in fact true. If fact, T'Pol's service record did provide positive proof she went to Carbon Creek.
Of course, we do get a clue that the story can't be exactly as T'Pol told it: T'Mir gets invited to a minor-league baseball game during a time when Sputnik 1 can be seen, and that that places the action between October 1957 and January 1958.

Mind, this is well within the normal bounds for mistaken recollections or errors in transmitting stories, and the moreso considering it'd be across several centuries and possibly multiple generations of storytelling, and so can only really be used to foil Bugs Meany.
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Old October 23 2013, 07:41 PM   #50
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Yanks wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
You probably could have just started a new thread for this, rather than re-animating a dead one from over a year ago.
Seems like starting new thread is accepted here. Every other board I've participated in frowns on starting another thread where on exists. Thanks
Just to clarify how it seems to work here, Moderators generally seem to prefer not reactivating a thread over 6 months old. If you see a thread younger than that on the topic you want to discuss, add to that one. Otherwise, start your own.

Each sub-forum has its own individual mods, so their preferences may vary on how rigidly they enforce it. I don't think they'll use their agonizers on you though.
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Old October 23 2013, 08:07 PM   #51
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

HR, the Enterprise mod, only brought out the pain sticks if you posted spoilers for Into Darkness.

(rubs pain stick wound from months ago)

Beyond that... it really seems personal preference to the sub forum's mod to how selectively rules are enforced and on whom.
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Old October 23 2013, 09:39 PM   #52
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

I was expecting not to like this episode, but much to my surprise I kind of got caught up in it. The actors portraying the mom and her son (I forget the character names) were really convincing to me, and I really felt for the two. When Grandma T'pol had left him the velcro money for his college, that was very moving to me.

As far as a low budget filler episode goes, my friends and I can't always afford big bashes. Once in a while we just get together at someone's house, sort of a b.y.o.b. thing, and often they turn out to be the most fun and memorable!
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Old October 23 2013, 09:39 PM   #53
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Of course, we do get a clue that the story can't be exactly as T'Pol told it: T'Mir gets invited to a minor-league baseball game during a time when Sputnik 1 can be seen, and that that places the action between October 1957 and January 1958.
Interesting, would you please explain? It couldn't bee seen low in the horizon in May through September?
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Old October 23 2013, 09:49 PM   #54
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

For minor league baseball to be in effect it would most certainly have been in October and that's cutting it. They really don't play in the winters.

I would presume the visibility of Sputnik would have to do with the tilt of the Earth and it's orbit only being able to be seen in North America during certain times. Or just that Sputnik wasn't in orbit that long. Someone correct me there, I'm just guessing at it.
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Old October 23 2013, 10:25 PM   #55
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Wiki indicates it was launched 4 October 1957, signal transmissions ended 22 days later when the batteries wore out, and it burned up on 4 January 1958.

I know Telstar was visible with the naked eye. We were leaving a church service one night in 1962 or 1963, and saw it moving across the sky.
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Old October 23 2013, 10:26 PM   #56
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Melakon wrote: View Post
Wiki indicates it was launched 4 October 1957, signal transmissions ended 22 days later when the batteries wore out, and it burned up on 4 January 1958.

I know Telstar was visible with the naked eye. We were leaving a church service one night in 1962 or 1963, and saw it moving across the sky.
I guess that would imply that CC was in early October then.
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Old October 23 2013, 10:33 PM   #57
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Two things:

As the mod in the TNG forum, I actually like it when someone resurrects an old thread and adds substantively to it. I get the impression that Yanks read most, if not all of the thread before posting. As an aside, I share his (?) enthusiasm for the episode as one of the best of ENT and a top 20 of all Trek for me.

As someone who was 11 and a science junkie when Sputnik went up, I clearly recall that it was not visible to the naked eye, only through powerful binoculars or a telescope. I only had a cheap pair of binoculars and lived in urban Louisville so seeing it was out of the question.
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Old October 23 2013, 10:42 PM   #58
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Mutai Sho-Rin wrote: View Post
Two things:

As the mod in the TNG forum, I actually like it when someone resurrects an old thread and adds substantively to it. I get the impression that Yanks read most, if not all of the thread before posting. As an aside, I share his (?) enthusiasm for the episode as one of the best of ENT and a top 20 of all Trek for me.

As someone who was 11 and a science junkie when Sputnik went up, I clearly recall that it was not visible to the naked eye, only through powerful binoculars or a telescope. I only had a cheap pair of binoculars and lived in urban Louisville so seeing it was out of the question.
Cool. I did read both threads that came up and thought this one was most appropriate for what I had to post.

From what Jack said, it wasn't easy to see it.

JACK: Oh really? Did you know that minutes after dusk, when the sun is just right you can see Sputnik with the naked eye. Maybe tomorrow I could show you.

But he was a sharp kid you know.
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Old October 24 2013, 12:55 AM   #59
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Yanks wrote: View Post
From what Jack said, it wasn't easy to see it.

JACK: Oh really? Did you know that minutes after dusk, when the sun is just right you can see Sputnik with the naked eye. Maybe tomorrow I could show you.

But he was a sharp kid you know.
He was, and Sputnik wasn't easy to see during the few months that it was in orbit. You had to know where to look, and many people --- then and since --- have sloppily assumed that it couldn't be seen. But, per the National Geographic article about the launch of Sputnik (I don't have the issue on hand, but it would have a cover date of around January 1958, and can be found in every used book store ever), observers could and did see it with the naked eye.

(Confounding things is that the upper stage of the rocket which launched Sputnik also orbited for a good while, and as a much larger object was more easily visible. People seeing just something shiny moving in the night sky would, reasonably, think they had seen the satellite when they were actually seeing the rocket stage's shell, and this probably helps confound the matter of naked-eye observations of Sputnik 1.)
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Old October 24 2013, 02:45 AM   #60
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Re: I really Like "Carbon Creek"

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
From what Jack said, it wasn't easy to see it.

JACK: Oh really? Did you know that minutes after dusk, when the sun is just right you can see Sputnik with the naked eye. Maybe tomorrow I could show you.

But he was a sharp kid you know.
He was, and Sputnik wasn't easy to see during the few months that it was in orbit. You had to know where to look, and many people --- then and since --- have sloppily assumed that it couldn't be seen. But, per the National Geographic article about the launch of Sputnik (I don't have the issue on hand, but it would have a cover date of around January 1958, and can be found in every used book store ever), observers could and did see it with the naked eye.

(Confounding things is that the upper stage of the rocket which launched Sputnik also orbited for a good while, and as a much larger object was more easily visible. People seeing just something shiny moving in the night sky would, reasonably, think they had seen the satellite when they were actually seeing the rocket stage's shell, and this probably helps confound the matter of naked-eye observations of Sputnik 1.)
Great stuff! Love real world input like this.

Thank you for sharing!
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