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Old October 19 2013, 04:45 PM   #31
RandyS
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
JINXED wrote: View Post
Seriously, what kind of jackass creates a lead character -- especially one who would be speaking on behalf of humanity during the series -- and present him as a bigot toward alien species in the opening scenes of the premiere?
Were his thoughts towards the Vulcans unjustified?
Yes. The Vulcans knew better. Archer didn't.
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Old October 19 2013, 06:43 PM   #32
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Mutai Sho-Rin wrote: View Post
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
I'm with you completely on this. As a guy who saw much of TOS as a young adult in '66 - '69, I'm not a Trek newbie by any stretch. ENT is my second favorite series, just a smidge behind TNG. I'm just starting my second trip through the ENT DVDs (no Bluray yet) and enjoying it all over again.
I'm going to wait for the price to come down to purchase the Blurays. I seem to say the series I'm currently watching is my favorite T'Pol is my favorite character though.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Season 3 put him in a completely different situation. Arguably more pressure than any other Star Trek Captain has ever faced. Singularly charged with saving humanity? ... with no help??? I can understand the pressure and how that burden kept pressing and pressing. He didn't need to act like a tough guy to be the tough guy. When he did, it did not resonate well with me.

This is where I'll address Scott's acting a little. From chewing butt in his Cabin, to the mirror universe, etc.... he does not do "mad" or "angry" very well. I don't think it's in him. I can understand the story put the character in situations where that reaction was appropriate, but he just doesn't play that part very well...
I agree with this. Bakula is a fine actor, but his range only goes so far when it comes to being angry. He's more convincing when he quietly simmers rather than rants.

Otherwise, I thought the character of Archer was appropriate for ENT and I thought one of his defining moments was in season four's "Home" when he finally faced all that he had been through in first three seasons:

"I lost something out there, and I don't know how to get it back."
--Captain Jonathan Archer

Archer went in as an eager (if not slightly nave) explorer not really knowing what he was in for and, IMO, that was befitting the series. He made mistakes, compromised some of his values, and had to take a long look at himself afterward and reevaluate. I do think that after his "trial by fire" in the first three seasons, Archer was of course a better captain. It could definitely be said that later captains benefited from lessons learned by Archer.
A couple of Archers finest moments for me were his speech in Terra Prime, his little talk with T'Pol about Trip in TATV.

Lot's of good with his character and Scott's acting.

One thing I didn't like was how they kept saying that he and he alone had to start the federation. Let his actions speak for themselves, you don't have to keep shoving it in our faces.
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Old October 22 2013, 08:10 PM   #33
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I had no problems with Bakula's acting, but I don't see how he could not come across as smarmy with the dialogue they gave him. Too many indignant speeches about how Enterprise was doing things it was never intended to do. Too many prescient asides that served as fan service. His dialogue often out of tune with his character's development: he was maturing faster than his lines did. I also felt that his attitude toward the Vulcans/"xenophobia" would have made sense if the show's first season had been on Earth; B and B couldn't pivot fast enough to have it make sense otherwise.
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Old October 22 2013, 09:55 PM   #34
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I have to write this down before I forget it.

Last night I dreamed I was watching a Star Trek pilot I had never seen for a series I hadn't caught up with. It was set in the Guild Wars universe (which I've been playing). Archer was the captain and in the pilot he was running around the encampment of the "aliens" telling everyone what to do. These aliens lived in a caste system and Archer was lecturing them about how this was unenlightened and threatening to knock them on their ass if they kept up their unenlightened ways. I was watching this thinking "wow he really is a jerk in this, I will have to complain about it on the bbs.."

And the chorus says..

TEACAKE IT IS TIME TO GO OUTSIDE
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Old October 22 2013, 10:03 PM   #35
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
I had no problems with Bakula's acting, but I don't see how he could not come across as smarmy with the dialogue they gave him. Too many indignant speeches about how Enterprise was doing things it was never intended to do. Too many prescient asides that served as fan service. His dialogue often out of tune with his character's development: he was maturing faster than his lines did. I also felt that his attitude toward the Vulcans/"xenophobia" would have made sense if the show's first season had been on Earth; B and B couldn't pivot fast enough to have it make sense otherwise.
"smarmy" ... had to look that one up

It was B&B's intention to make the first year on earth, but UPN wouldn't have it.
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Old October 22 2013, 10:10 PM   #36
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

teacock wrote: View Post
I have to write this down before I forget it.

Last night I dreamed I was watching a Star Trek pilot I had never seen for a series I hadn't caught up with. It was set in the Guild Wars universe (which I've been playing). Archer was the captain and in the pilot he was running around the encampment of the "aliens" telling everyone what to do. These aliens lived in a caste system and Archer was lecturing them about how this was unenlightened and threatening to knock them on their ass if they kept up their unenlightened ways. I was watching this thinking "wow he really is a jerk in this, I will have to complain about it on the bbs.."

And the chorus says..

TEACAKE IT IS TIME TO GO OUTSIDE
Not sure what Guild Wars is, but that might have been an interesting episode. Earth terrorizes third world planet... Forrest comes up with Prime Directive to keep him from doing that again. Better than Dear Doctor genocide anyways.
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Old October 22 2013, 10:55 PM   #37
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I wish we had seen more rogue human groups in Trek. There's no way everyone was sooooo evolved that you didn't have rogue groups getting what they wanted out of planets that hadn't hit space yet. Certainly the Klingons did. Not having money only works in the Federation and I suspect it only works on specific Federation worlds and outposts , not on every Federation planet. I would imagine there would be plenty who would rather make their own way.
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Old October 23 2013, 02:22 AM   #38
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

teacock wrote: View Post
There's no way everyone was sooooo evolved...
Heretic!
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Old October 23 2013, 02:24 AM   #39
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

bud wrote: View Post
teacock wrote: View Post
There's no way everyone was sooooo evolved...
Heretic!
The evil human club in Star Trek is also known as the Admiralty.
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Old October 23 2013, 10:27 AM   #40
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Yes you might get rid of the need for money but you can't get rid of the need for power.
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Old October 23 2013, 10:49 AM   #41
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

SiddFinch1 wrote: View Post
Bakula was fine
I had more problem with the way things were presented. With it being 90 years since warp was discovered and first contact and minimal alien contact. Prequals are hard especially when the canon was made up in the fly in much of tos. You are boxed in. May not have mattered but the te.mporal cold war and xinti arc were not compelling. Would have preferred more use of Orion's. As early pirate threat at first. Perhaps even kzinti. then lead into romulan war and fed founding sooner thanseason 4.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, while not my favorite incarnation of Trek, I still liked Enterprise, and Archer as a captain. However, it is true in the first couple seasons, Archer comes off as stiff, unsure of himself, and while I wouldn't say he was a bigot, I didn't like his preconceptions of Vulcans at first. At least Archer did evolve though.

I attribute this to more of the writers WANTING to convey that Archer and the NX01 crew were in new territory, and wanted to write them with a certain amount of naivety and make sure we knew this wasn't a polished, 24th century Federation ship and crew, but just missed SOMETHING about the writing and it seems a bit forced. Maybe it was because they had many of the same writers and they were still used to writing for the 24th century era and were having trouble transitioning? I dunno.

I don't think this really had much to do with the actors themselves, namely Bakula, Trinnier, and Blalock, because I have seen them all in other works and they are decent actors. Maybe not Patrick Stewart level, but definitely adequate and competent actors.

I think the temporal cold war just hadn't been fleshed out properly. The Xindi arc, however, I remember seeing in first run and thinking "Why are we seeing this, and NOT the Romulan War?"

That all said, I think Enterprise gets unfairly bashed, mainly because it was the last incarnation of Trek and became the whipping post for fan frustrations of over-saturation and basically Trek running on TV from 1987-2005 with no break and new ideas basically being harder to come up with.
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Old October 23 2013, 11:01 AM   #42
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, while not my favorite incarnation of Trek, I still liked Enterprise, and Archer as a captain. However, it is true in the first couple seasons, Archer comes off as stiff, unsure of himself,
The stiffness.. bothers me. Why the stiffness. Bakula isn't like this normally is he? I would have preferred Trip as captain, just as dumb and unsure and naive but filling that up with ego and personality rather than a stick up the butt demeanor.

(And yes he did improve)
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Old October 23 2013, 11:15 AM   #43
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
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Thanks for reminding me. I couldn't believe that Bermaga would set up Vulcans as obstructionists after being portrayed for years as loyal friends of humanity.
That was ridiculous. I can understand the Vulcans wanting humanity to take their time and advise caution--space is a dangerous place--and may have their own policies on not sharing technology, but I don't see why they would commit so many resources to helping humanity just to hold them back and then moan.
My theory: They weren't that way in Original History. Foreknowledge of the Borg - gained from discussion with Cochran and Sloan and other witnesses in Bozeman - caused the Vulcans to militarize (why the military controlled the planet) and to try to keep their heads down and not draw attention until they felt like they were ready (and keep the humans' heads down, too).

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
I had no problems with Bakula's acting, but I don't see how he could not come across as smarmy with the dialogue they gave him.
Captain Archer frankly reminded me of President Bush, and the fact that I actually LIKE Archer is either a testament to Bakula's acting ability, natural charisma, or both.
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Old October 23 2013, 11:19 AM   #44
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

I never saw him as smarmy. Now Riker, HE is smarmy.
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Old October 23 2013, 11:33 AM   #45
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Re: So what's with all the Archer hate?

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
I had no problems with Bakula's acting, but I don't see how he could not come across as smarmy with the dialogue they gave him.
Captain Archer frankly reminded me of President Bush, and the fact that I actually LIKE Archer is either a testament to Bakula's acting ability, natural charisma, or both.
teacock wrote: View Post
I never saw him as smarmy. Now Riker, HE is smarmy.
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
However, it is true in the first couple seasons, Archer comes off as stiff, unsure of himself, and while I wouldn't say he was a bigot, I didn't like his preconceptions of Vulcans at first. At least Archer did evolve though.

I attribute this to more of the writers WANTING to convey that Archer and the NX01 crew were in new territory, and wanted to write them with a certain amount of naivety and make sure we knew this wasn't a polished, 24th century Federation ship and crew, but just missed SOMETHING about the writing and it seems a bit forced. Maybe it was because they had many of the same writers and they were still used to writing for the 24th century era and were having trouble transitioning? I dunno.
What I found compelling about Sam Beckett played by Bakula was that he was always uncertain of himself. Almost every episode was not about himself. Instead, he endeavored to understand the character he inhabited and the relationships with the people around him or her. He developed an affection for those people. The only time I thought he was a dick was when Sam and Al switched placed, and all the details of his like returned to his consciousness.

As Archer, Bakula could channel the same uncertainty and caring about the other, particularly in episodes like Minefield and Observed Effect. It's when he tried to assert himself that I thought he came across as smarmy: whenever he expressed his frustration that his starry eyed dreams of exploration weren't coming true, or when he had to pitch a fit about interference from the Vulcans or from Daniels.
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