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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 21 2013, 01:30 AM   #451
Mycroft Maxwell
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Speed of Plot gets a tad ridiculous when you go from ENEMY Homeworld to Earth in less than 3 minutes. Thats not Ridiculous speed, thats straight to Ludicrous speed. Dark Helmet says so.
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Old October 21 2013, 01:46 AM   #452
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
Speed of Plot gets a tad ridiculous when you go from ENEMY Homeworld to Earth in less than 3 minutes. Thats not Ridiculous speed, thats straight to Ludicrous speed. Dark Helmet says so.
Is there a plot reason that they need to go slower?
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Old October 21 2013, 01:54 AM   #453
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
...
FKnight wrote: View Post

Is this a serious post? You are flat out deciding to put off watching the movie and are making judgements about it, claiming you're willing to be proven wrong, yet actively refusing to watch it. Yes, "some day' you'll watch it. How about today since, today is the day you're posting opinions about it?
Unless I include smileys indicating I'm joking, or some other indicator of humor or sarcasm, yes, my post is serious.

We have ONE movie theatre in town, and it's not in one of the better-traveled areas. I don't drive, and there's no bus service that's close enough there to allow for a safe walk after dark. I'm not willing to risk being robbed or worse just so I can satisfy this forum's insistence that I should see these movies immediately, instead of waiting for a time when I can see them safely in my own home.

Secondly, I'm not much of a TV-watcher, either. I got out of the habit some years back and never really got back into it. I watch ONE show that's on daily (as in 5 days a week) and TWO shows that are on weekly. I occasionally watch stuff on Netflix (most recently the Firefly series, which I really enjoyed), but nuTrek isn't available on the Canadian version of Netflix.

Therefore, you need to re-read my first post above (this time, while switching on your "reading comprehension"). I SAID I was going to watch this movie. But I will watch it at MY convenience, NOT yours.
FKnight appears to have understood perfectly well what you wrote (note the bits I've placed in bold above). The "reading comprehension" dig is more problematic, as it's a well-known way of trying to stay under the radar while calling someone stupid.

That won't fly here. Please don't repeat it.
I stated I intended to watch the movie. FKnight contradicted that statement, saying I was refusing to watch it.

If his problem was that I refused to watch it at a time of his choosing, he should have said so, rather than claiming that I said I wasn't going to watch it at all.
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Old October 21 2013, 02:01 AM   #454
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Franklin wrote: View Post
And of course, there's this old chestnut: The ship travels at the speed of the plot.
For my money, a lazy writing habit that became part of what stultified the original Trek style. The "speed of drama" conceit means you can never tell convincing stories in your setting in which you can derive drama from a sense of place and distance: for example, it effectively closes off the kind of drama we see in The Hunt for Red October, where everybody is working against a clock that consists of the Red October's travel time from Poliarny Inlet to within launch distance of America's eastern seaboard. (I mean, you can still attempt stories like this, it's just a lot harder to really sell them in a setting where everything is next to everything and ships "move at the speed of drama.")

I know Old Gene had only himself to blame for this; Trek was developing rubber rules about warp factor before the original series was even finished, because "the speed of drama" is a quicker, easier, more seductive path for the writer's room to take. But they really would have been better off taking Roddenberry's original scale and just sticking to it, and would have lost little by doing so.

[EDIT: Or, since sci-fi seems perpetually embarrassed at the prospect of taking its setting "too seriously" -- a bad habit that Roddenberry initially aspired to shake, but only ever very partially managed actually to get free of -- you can look at it from a different angle. If your ships move "at the speed of drama," how dramatically effective is it really to present the appearance that distance is effectively meaningless in your setting and the Klingon homeworld looks to be a few hours' easy jaunt from Earth? Moving at the speed of drama, you still need some rough sense of speeds and distance that actually does heighten drama.]
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Old October 21 2013, 03:20 AM   #455
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I occasionally watch stuff on Netflix (most recently the Firefly series, which I really enjoyed), but nuTrek isn't available on the Canadian version of Netflix.
It was last month and for many months before that. Perhaps you should check again (since you're already paying for Netflix, it isn't going to cost you anything), if, of course, you feel inclined to do so.

Edit: Oops. I read nuTrek literally--the 09 movie is on Canadian Netflix. The latest one is not there yet. My mistake.
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Old October 21 2013, 03:35 AM   #456
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ovation wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I occasionally watch stuff on Netflix (most recently the Firefly series, which I really enjoyed), but nuTrek isn't available on the Canadian version of Netflix.
It was last month and for many months before that. Perhaps you should check again (since you're already paying for Netflix, it isn't going to cost you anything), if, of course, you feel inclined to do so.

Edit: Oops. I read nuTrek literally--the 09 movie is on Canadian Netflix. The latest one is not there yet. My mistake.
I've just checked. The list of Star Trek that's available reads thusly:

Star Trek The Next Generation (7 seasons)
Generations
First Contact
Insurrection
The Motion Picture
Nemesis
The Wrath of Khan
The Undiscovered Country
The Search for Spock

A search for the 2009 movie says it is unavailable. But I was able to see it on the Space Channel some time back.
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Old October 21 2013, 03:49 AM   #457
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
For my money, a lazy writing habit that became part of what stultified the original Trek style. The "speed of drama" conceit means you can never tell convincing stories in your setting in which you can derive drama from a sense of place and distance: for example, it effectively closes off the kind of drama we see in The Hunt for Red October, where everybody is working against a clock that consists of the Red October's travel time from Poliarny Inlet to within launch distance of America's eastern seaboard. (I mean, you can still attempt stories like this, it's just a lot harder to really sell them in a setting where everything is next to everything and ships "move at the speed of drama.")
The film The Hunt for Red October has more than its fair share of errors, when it comes to the positions and velocities of the various subs throughout the film.
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Old October 21 2013, 05:45 AM   #458
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I didn't read the whole thread, only maybe up to page 9.

However, I mostly agree with this:

Continuity. They didn't have to tie in with classic Trek at all, but in making their "not just for Trekkies" movies they've included more nods and references than any prior Star Trek. Not only to the episodes and movies, but they've drawn on novels, comics, old technical manuals and even some videogames and ancient fanlore. It's completely insane how much they've managed to cram in. There are almost two movies running parallel - the one the casual viewer sees, and the one the hardcore Trekkie sees, where everything has extra significance.
I'd like to add, that a lot of these grievances, like transwarp transporters and such, at least to me, seem like throwaway plot devices simply to get you going on the story without bogging it down.

In TNG, there would have had to be this huge explanation riddled with like 10 mins of treknobabble to paint a "logical" working of such a device. The writers didn't want to do that, instead used it simply to get from point A to point B in the story.

I agree with a lot of the complaints, but willing to overlook them because the movies are pretty fun. I wish someone would have tried doing this in the TNG movies. We might have gotten a few decent ones instead of the dreck we got.

I agree with the quote that nuTrek is really trying to be mass appeal Trek, catering to younger audiences, and they are trying to be as faithful to the original material without hurting the style that attracts the younger people.

I admit that, while I liked TOS, it wasn't my favorite series. I might be more pissed if nuTrek had been a TNG reboot. Reimagine Data or the Enterprise D, and there'll be hell to pay!
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Old October 21 2013, 06:51 AM   #459
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
The film The Hunt for Red October has more than its fair share of errors, when it comes to the positions and velocities of the various subs throughout the film.
None that perceptibly affect the geographic framing and premise of the story that I can recall. (I'm not talking about minor continuity errors like subs appearing a few yards closer in-shot than we're told they are, or Sean Connery and Alec Baldwin having a few seconds too long to chat about books after being told "twenty seconds to impact." Stuff like that is penny-ante, the equivalent of complaining about the number of buttons on somebody's coat.)
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Old October 21 2013, 07:41 AM   #460
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
(I'm not talking about minor continuity errors [...]
Neither am I. I'm talking about things that made me snicker on first viewing in the theater, but which are just the sorts of stuff that's typical of a film that's the product of writers' imaginations, jazzed up for theatrics, and not cold hard reality. Even the overwhelming majority of films based on true events don't represent what actually happened; some aspects of reality get altered in the translation to the big screen. It's not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but rather, it's just that what you see on the screen is at best an approximation that is responsive at least as much to its own rules as it is to those of reality.

Two examples in The Hunt for Red October come to my mind. The most significant is probably that, with a range of 5,000 miles, the missiles of the Red October don't need to be launched close to the American coast at all, to hit American targets. This is an example of the movie being responsive to its own rules rather than those of reality.

But, my favorite, that took me right out of the movie on first viewing, is that in the middle of its cat-and-mouse game with the Red October, when the two subs are shown running silently side by side, the Dallas surfaces to pick up Ryan from the helicopter, and yet we are supposed to believe that the Red October can't detect any of that.

The Hunt for Red October is, overall, quite entertaining. However, ultimately, it's just a film, and it's certainly not a model of filmmaking with enough fidelity to reality to command a total suspension of disbelief.
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Old October 21 2013, 07:59 AM   #461
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Two examples in The Hunt for Red October come to my mind. The most significant is probably that, with a range of 5,000 miles, the missiles of the Red October don't need to be launched close to the American coast at all, to hit American targets.
Actually the scenario the movie is built around, and which everyone is racing to prevent, is a decapitation strike, short-range firing of SLBM's to take out centers with little to no warning before impact (so that the Americans wouldn't even know where to evacuate short of the impossible task of evacuating the entire eastern coast). We are told this in the film, and it is in fact an actual tactical use of SLBM's.

But, my favorite, that took me right out of the movie on first viewing, is that in the middle of its cat-and-mouse game with the Red October, when the two subs are shown running silently side by side, the Dallas surfaces to pick up Ryan from the helicopter, and yet we are supposed to believe that the Red October can't detect any of that.
This one, maybe, except I always had the impression that Dallas hung back and pulled away to pick up Ryan. (Hence Captain Scott Glenn's annoyance, which wouldn't have made sense if the Dallas had just surfaced right behind their target and dived again.)

Neither of these examples is at any rate relevant to my point, since neither of them is a problem that remotely affects the geographic framing of the action or constitutes "speed of drama" nonsense, which is what I was talking about. Moreover I don't require "fidelity to reality" so much as internal consistency: what I'm talking about is a film choosing a set of rules, indicating what they are and then playing by them. Red October delivers the drama that it does by doing this. "Speed of drama" conventions rob a film of the opportunity to do this, and squander story possibilities in so doing.
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Old October 21 2013, 08:02 AM   #462
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
what I'm talking about is a film choosing a set of rules and then playing by them.
Wonderful! Both STXI and STID did this, so what's the problem again?
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Old October 21 2013, 08:06 AM   #463
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Both STXI and STID did this
Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
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Old October 21 2013, 08:29 AM   #464
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Both STXI and STID did this
Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
On the contrary.

In this thread, and in many others, it's been convincingly pointed out over and over again many reasons why there is no need for the nu-timeline to depict the same warp physics as was shown in the TOS era. Several convincing cases have been put forth in this thread in the past few pages, so I won't bother linking to them. I will add to them, though (or rather, bring up one point that I find particularly significant, which, no doubt, has been brought up before in this context).

In The Menagerie, in the flashback footage of The Cage, we have the dialog:

SURVIVOR: Is Earth all right?
PIKE: The same old Earth, and you'll see it very soon.
TYLER: And you won't believe how fast you can get back. Well the time barrier's been broken. Our new ships can
That suggests quite plainly that advancements in warp physics occurred in the old-Trek TOS timeline, between the years 2236 and 2254. But the Kelvin was destroyed in STXI, in 2233, before this suggested revision in warp physics occurred. So, in TOS's own terms, wouldn't it be more far-fetched to assume that warp physics would the same after the temporal incursion of 2233 as it was in the TOS timeline?
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Old October 21 2013, 02:42 PM   #465
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

We've never even seen Klingons *use* warp drive in this reality. Nevermind how slow or inferior it is compared to the new militarised Starfleets faster drive systems.
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