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Old October 20 2013, 05:05 PM   #346
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ I've been trying to demonstrate that continuity of story and character was maintained to a much greater degree than is perceived, and fully believe that I've done a fairly good job even if not everyone accepts the evidence I've offered and the conclusions I've drawn. The series admittedly could've been better at maintaining continuity of details (physical rank pips, crew numbers, resource supply numbers, etc.), but those things are negligible, IMO, when you look at what the series did as a whole.

The more I watch and research Voyager, BTW, the more firm my conviction that the show is a Serialized Procedural - with all of the continuity and serialization trappings thereof - becomes, and the more I become convinced that the show absolutely needs to be experienced as the Serialized Procedural it is in order for it to be totally appreciated.
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Old October 20 2013, 05:30 PM   #347
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Has any one agreed with you that Voyager had more continuity than they thought there was?

Are you changing minds?
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Old October 20 2013, 05:33 PM   #348
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

But VOY unlike the other Trek shows had a clearly defined goal to get home. The show was about that.

TNG was a serialised procedural, exploring the out boundires of the Federation and flying the flag (so to speak). It had no real defined end goal, VOY by having a defined end goal was more akin to a novel.

We have those that are happy for what it was, and some who feel it could have been so much more, they don't hate the show they are just dissapointed with it.

We all have our different expectations of what we want from a show, so no matter the show it will more often or not fail to please some of the audiance. I suspect that had VOY been made 5 or so years early, we might not be talking about continuity, their was a shift in audiance tastes to more heavily serialised shows just starting to happen around the time VOY came out.
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Old October 20 2013, 05:45 PM   #349
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But VOY unlike the other Trek shows had a clearly defined goal to get home. The show was about that.

TNG was a serialised procedural, exploring the out boundires of the Federation and flying the flag (so to speak). It had no real defined end goal, VOY by having a defined end goal was more akin to a novel.
I see TNG as being much more of an Episodic series than a Serialized Procedural - and think the show itself supports that conclusion - but to each their own.

As for Voyager, I don't see how or why having an end goal makes it any less of a Serialized Procedural because it's the execution of said end goal that makes the show adhere to the Serialized Procedural format.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Has any one agreed with you that Voyager had more continuity than they thought there was?

Are you changing minds?
I'm not sure if that's happening on these forums, but I've at the very least started a discussion, even if it's largely a dissenting one.

I've posted pretty much the same analysis as here on other forums (although I haven't gone quite as in-depth as I have here), and have gotten a little more positive push-back, but I'm not really trying to force people's opinions to change so a lack of positive push-back here doesn't bother me.
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Old October 20 2013, 05:51 PM   #350
Guy Gardener
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But VOY unlike the other Trek shows had a clearly defined goal to get home. The show was about that.

TNG was a serialised procedural, exploring the out boundires of the Federation and flying the flag (so to speak). It had no real defined end goal, VOY by having a defined end goal was more akin to a novel.

We have those that are happy for what it was, and some who feel it could have been so much more, they don't hate the show they are just dissapointed with it.

We all have our different expectations of what we want from a show, so no matter the show it will more often or not fail to please some of the audiance. I suspect that had VOY been made 5 or so years early, we might not be talking about continuity, their was a shift in audiance tastes to more heavily serialised shows just starting to happen around the time VOY came out.
TNG was certainly an episodic procedural.

Voyagers job was to be a little better than TNG... But it's job was also to be a little better than DS9.

"What's more exotic than a black guy?"

"What about a woman?"

"Wow! That really ticks the minority box!"

"You sure you don't just want to play it safe and use a white guy again?"

"Next time, next time I promise you, I'll generic the shit out of the next show."
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Old October 20 2013, 06:03 PM   #351
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^ I don't know whether or not Voyager needed to be better, per se, than TNG and DS9, but it did need to differentiate itself and carve out its own identity, and I think it did so fairly well.

It's hard to compare TNG to DS9 and Voyager or DS9 to TNG and Voyager (IMO) because they're all so different in terms of format. It's far easier and more fitting to compare TOS and TNG to one another and Voyager and Enterprise to one another because they're of the same format, with DS9 being the 'standalone' entity of the franchise (which is just fine).
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Old October 20 2013, 06:24 PM   #352
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

For a more serialized plot, the show needed more than a "Gilligan's Island" plot wherein the main series point could NEVER be resolved without ending the show.

Let's face it, they were never going to get home before the finale because then the show would be over....because they never gave the more of a plot than that.
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Old October 20 2013, 06:27 PM   #353
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
What does the Dominion War have to do with the Maquis? That's the subject I was talking about.
Sorry, when you wrote "it surpasses the number of episodes from both TNG and DS9 combined that dealt either directly or indirectly with the same subject" I read that as meaning any subject -- not the subject of the Maquis. My mistake.
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Old October 20 2013, 06:36 PM   #354
MacLeod
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
But VOY unlike the other Trek shows had a clearly defined goal to get home. The show was about that.

TNG was a serialised procedural, exploring the out boundires of the Federation and flying the flag (so to speak). It had no real defined end goal, VOY by having a defined end goal was more akin to a novel.
I see TNG as being much more of an Episodic series than a Serialized Procedural - and think the show itself supports that conclusion - but to each their own.

As for Voyager, I don't see how or why having an end goal makes it any less of a Serialized Procedural because it's the execution of said end goal that makes the show adhere to the Serialized Procedural format.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Has any one agreed with you that Voyager had more continuity than they thought there was?

Are you changing minds?
I'm not sure if that's happening on these forums, but I've at the very least started a discussion, even if it's largely a dissenting one.

I've posted pretty much the same analysis as here on other forums (although I haven't gone quite as in-depth as I have here), and have gotten a little more positive push-back, but I'm not really trying to force people's opinions to change so a lack of positive push-back here doesn't bother me.
Haven't you been using story themes as athe basis for saying VOY was a serialised procedural

in TNG

we had "Coming of Age" and "Conspiracy" dealing with a percieved threat to Starfleet.

Worf's arc his loss of honour, tied into of course the Klingon arc with Duras, K'mpec and the Duras, which tied into part the Romualns. Trying to destablise the Klingon-Fedeation alliance.

"Sins of The Father", "Reunion", "Redmeption, I", "Redemption II", "Birthright, Part I", "Birthright, Part II"

"The Enemy", "Unification, Part I", "Unifcation, Part II"

Then of course we have Data's arc to become more human, the Borg arc. Q's arc etc.. Even Wes had an arc about the academy.

More than enough I think to meet the same standard to be classed as a serialised procdure that you are applying to VOY
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Old October 20 2013, 07:21 PM   #355
DigificWriter
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Haven't you been using story themes as athe basis for saying VOY was a serialised procedural

in TNG

we had "Coming of Age" and "Conspiracy" dealing with a percieved threat to Starfleet.

Worf's arc his loss of honour, tied into of course the Klingon arc with Duras, K'mpec and the Duras, which tied into part the Romualns. Trying to destablise the Klingon-Fedeation alliance.

"Sins of The Father", "Reunion", "Redmeption, I", "Redemption II", "Birthright, Part I", "Birthright, Part II"

"The Enemy", "Unification, Part I", "Unifcation, Part II"

Then of course we have Data's arc to become more human, the Borg arc. Q's arc etc.. Even Wes had an arc about the academy.

More than enough I think to meet the same standard to be classed as a serialised procdure that you are applying to VOY
A show isn't a Serialized Procedural because it has recurring story arcs. What makes a show a Serialized Procedural is the way that things are linked together from week to week even though the actual story of any given episode might be episodic in nature.

As I noted, you can, by and large, watch any episode of TNG in any order because the way it deals with story/character progression and recurring story arcs is very broad.

Voyager, on the other hand, deals with story/character progression and recurring story arcs and thematic narratives in a much more focused fashion.

Let me put this another way: the difference between TNG and Voyager is like the difference between the Law and Order franchise shows and Bones.

Anwar wrote: View Post
For a more serialized plot, the show needed more than a "Gilligan's Island" plot wherein the main series point could NEVER be resolved without ending the show.

Let's face it, they were never going to get home before the finale because then the show would be over....because they never gave the more of a plot than that.
It's not Voyager's overall plot that makes it fall into the Serialized Procedural format (see above for an explanation of what does). Bones doesn't have an overall plot, yet it's still very much a Serialized Procedural.

Harvey wrote: View Post
DigificWriter wrote: View Post
What does the Dominion War have to do with the Maquis? That's the subject I was talking about.
Sorry, when you wrote "it surpasses the number of episodes from both TNG and DS9 combined that dealt either directly or indirectly with the same subject" I read that as meaning any subject -- not the subject of the Maquis. My mistake.
It's all good.
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Old October 20 2013, 07:43 PM   #356
Harvey
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Voyager, on the other hand, deals with story/character progression...in a much more focused fashion.
I'd say the way the series dealt with characters was a bit of a mixed bag. The Doctor grew and changed over the course of the series. Seven of Nine was more or less stagnant after 'The Gift,' learning the same lesson week after week. Tom and B'Elanna had a relationship that grew and developed over time. Neelix and Kes had a relationship that was the same every week, ended off screen, and had the only scene addressing the break-up end up on the cutting room floor. Harry, the character you'd expect to show the most growth judging from 'Caretaker,' demonstrated almost none.
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Old October 20 2013, 07:53 PM   #357
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I don't think VOY did enough to really be that different from TNG. Every once in awhile it was nice to get an episode that dealt with the main premise, like in Hunters where Chaktoay and Torres learn of what happened to their Maquis comrades. But most of the time it really was just coasting on the episodic style of TNG where they face an anomaly of the week, alien of the week, ect. The worst kind is where they have two plots that have nothing to do with eachother, like "Real Life" where the Doc starts his own holographic family, meanwhile VOY finds some spacial whatwhat and has to technobabble their way through the whole thing. Then there's the plethora of holodeck episodes. Sometimes it seems like the holodeck was an easy out for the writers of Voyager. Don't feel like doing a real episode this week? Turn in a holo-episode! Fact is, the holodeck NEVER should have been included in the show. If I were in the production team, I would have fought for not including it.

How fun would it have been where Voyager gets seriously damage and the event carries over in the next few episodes? In "Deadlock" they get the ship seriously beaten to the point that they have to abandon the bridge. Very next episode? Clean as a whistle.

I think they should have taken more chances with the show. Example: Voyager crash lands on a planet and that thread carries over for five episodes before they can launch VOY back into space. Throughout those five episodes they have to deal with a whole lot of things, natives, wild beasts, and mid-way through that arc they realize the only way they can launch is if they have something they need, which is on that very planet. With transporters offline, an away team has to trek through the jungles to find that element. One episode has them actually find it, the next episode focuses on the crew worried about the away team because communications are down and they can't be sure of if they succeeded or not.

Heck, destroy Voyager for good in one of the later season finales. You might think "wait, how can there be a STAR TREK: VOYAGER without the very ship called Voyager?" Simple, they aquire an alien ship, rechristen it as Voyager.
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Old October 20 2013, 08:24 PM   #358
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Somehow I don't feel that elements built into the premise of the series--things that are at the core of the characters' being--really count. The way I see it, there were many episodes of Gilligan's Island where the castaways tried to escape the island. That didn't make for continuity, just an ongoing acknowledgement of the premise.
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Old October 20 2013, 08:35 PM   #359
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

But we all agree, that if we wanted to get off that island, the first thing we had to do was kill Gilligan?
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Old October 20 2013, 08:41 PM   #360
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Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

^If you do that, he won't be able to ward off the invasion of neighboring savages (i.e., the Kazon) through slapstick.
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