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Old October 19 2013, 03:30 AM   #76
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

^ Not from the films, I know that much. Agent Smith's comments in the original film suggest that there was only one Matrix - the paradise - prior to the one we were shown.
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Old October 19 2013, 05:37 AM   #77
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

The Architect's lines in Reloaded referenced the fact that there were multiple incarnations of the Matrix including the Paradise and Hell versions. Seraph and other programs being leftovers I think was from the game Enter the Matrix directed by the Wachowskis.
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Old October 19 2013, 05:50 AM   #78
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

I did some more checking on the Matrix wiki - apparently Matrix 2.0 wasn't literally Hell, i.e. fire and brimstone and all that, it was more like a grade-Z horror schlock film. Which makes it a little more understandable.
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Old October 19 2013, 05:13 PM   #79
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
I did some more checking on the Matrix wiki - apparently Matrix 2.0 wasn't literally Hell, i.e. fire and brimstone and all that, it was more like a grade-Z horror schlock film. Which makes it a little more understandable.
Yup, think more along the lines of his club, not the biblical one.

As for the Architects line about multiple versions, the Matrix Online wiki explains that this refers only to the "proper" or 3.0 series.

1 - 3.0
2 - 3.1
3 - 3.2
4 - 3.3
5 - 3.4
6 - 3.5

But as to what it is now, 4.0, 3.6 or 3.5.5 or something, I don't know.
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Old October 19 2013, 06:50 PM   #80
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Chrysalis wrote: View Post
As for the Architects line about multiple versions, the Matrix Online wiki explains that this refers only to the "proper" or 3.0 series.
But he says "The first Matrix I designed". So that would mean he didn't design 1.0 or 2.0.
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Old October 20 2013, 02:55 PM   #81
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Chrysalis wrote: View Post
As for the Architects line about multiple versions, the Matrix Online wiki explains that this refers only to the "proper" or 3.0 series.
But he says "The first Matrix I designed". So that would mean he didn't design 1.0 or 2.0.
"The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure."

1.0, Heaven

"Thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure."

2.0, Hell

"Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."

3.0, Reality simulation
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Old October 20 2013, 09:32 PM   #82
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

stj wrote: View Post
The philosophy and ideas in The Matrix movies is not acceptable as a guide to the real world, but most movies are equally irrelevant and much more cliched.
Considering the avatar you have chosen I am somewhat perplexed, now, as I felt Baruch Spinoza's ideas were rather prominently featured in the Matrix Trilogy:

"Spinoza was a thoroughgoing determinist who held that absolutely everything that happens occurs through the operation of necessity. For him, even human behaviour is fully determined, with freedom being our capacity to know we are determined and to understand why we act as we do. So freedom is not the possibility to say "no" to what happens to us but the possibility to say "yes" and fully understand why things should necessarily happen that way. By forming more "adequate" ideas about what we do and our emotions or affections, we become the adequate cause of our effects (internal or external), which entails an increase in activity (versus passivity). This means that we become both more free and more like God, as Spinoza argues in the Scholium to Prop. 49, Part II. However, Spinoza also held that everything must necessarily happen the way that it does. Therefore, humans have no free will. They believe, however, that their will is free. This illusionary perception of freedom stems from our human consciousness, experience and our indifference to prior natural causes. Humans think they are free but they ″dream with their eyes open″. For Spinoza, our actions are guided entirely by natural impulses." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoza

That's the lesson the protagonists are being told or taught by the Merovingian (aka the Devil) in RELOADED. He mocks them because they ask for the keymaker but they don't understand "why" they need him.

I'd dare to say that the question "Why" is a red thread throughout the trilogy. Another nice exmple is the Oracle in RELOADED. Neo has made / will make his choices but doesn't yet understand "Why" (IIRC she said "You already made your coice but now you want to understand the why").

And of course in RELOADED (or Act II) the pivotal scene is the confrontation with the Architect, the full understanding of a rather brutal truth and for Neo to make a choice between a rock and a hard place and "why" he chooses the door to the left and not the one to the right.

This scene is rather reminiscent of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and Luke's decision: to save his friends and by doing so risk everything they've fought for.
IMHO, Aristoteles had some very good explanation for this kind of human behaviour and I couldn't say in either case that Neo's or Luke's choice wasn't the right one.

Bob
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Old October 21 2013, 04:54 AM   #83
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

"The one's powers extend beyond the matrix"
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Old October 21 2013, 09:02 PM   #84
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
The philosophy and ideas in The Matrix movies is not acceptable as a guide to the real world, but most movies are equally irrelevant and much more cliched.
Considering the avatar you have chosen I am somewhat perplexed, now, as I felt Baruch Spinoza's ideas were rather prominently featured in the Matrix Trilogy...
Bob
My primary objection are 1) humans as batteries, which is mercifully blurred over after the first movie 2) the simultaneous existence of a deterministic Matrix and an antirationalist Oracle and 3) the way the movie offers a self-willed Neo who simply "chooses" to fight Smith to the death, or at least be interpreted as doing something so simple. The existence of gay people only in the Inferno but not the Temple was also remarkably annoying.

But the greater point that determinism is a hugely important theme is correct. I'm not in agreement with Spinoza's epistemology, so he's more like a Greek atomist or Lucretius, admirable, in the end essential to the human journey, but not the destination.

The Matrix ended with a man coming back to life to no reason other than the background music. There's no way to rate that movie very highly. Maybe it sounded as if I was damning with faint praise, but that wasn't the intention.
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Old October 22 2013, 03:10 AM   #85
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Chrysalis wrote:
It was a bluff, they can't survive alone now, and the Oracle finally called them on it.
But I thought the Architect was above lying and saw it as a human trait. Doesn't that include bluffing?
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Old October 22 2013, 04:29 AM   #86
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Chrysalis wrote: View Post
But as to what it is now, 4.0, 3.6 or 3.5.5 or something, I don't know.
Probably Windows 8.1.
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Old October 22 2013, 12:52 PM   #87
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

stj wrote: View Post
My primary objection are 1) humans as batteries, which is mercifully blurred over after the first movie.
Interesting, I thought that by the second film they clearly showcased Zion's practical application of geothermal energy (so deep underground) and the machines posession of drilling equipment to tap into geothermal energy if these ever wanted.

One could argue that Morpheus' battery analogy was a little piece of propaganda. The "Second Renaissance" animation film ("hand over your flesh") almost suggested to me that mankind was imprisoned as part of a punishment.

I think the "Second Renaissance" made it clear that appearances are deceiving. The whole premise that mankind would willingly darken the sky (to deprive the machines of solar energy) is rather hilarious, considering the suicidal side effects the inevitable "nuclear" winter would / did have on mankind (add to this that the machines never developped technology to clean up the darkened sky in several - ? - centuries).

stj wrote: View Post
2) the simultaneous existence of a deterministic Matrix and an antirationalist Oracle.
But wasn't the Oracle equally deterministic? She definitely inspired Morpheus to think in deterministic patterns when he constantly spoke about fate, destiny and that things happen for a reason.

Of course, and the Architect suggested that rather clearly, one of her duties as a control program was to provide the subjects with the illusion of choice. Ironically, Morpheus had been so taken with this concept that the first thing the Merovingian told him that this was wrong (however, the Merovingian was apparently jealous that the Oracle had qualities to influence and manipulate people far beyond his own "determininistic" abilities).

I can't help but to highlight the crucial scene in the Oracle's kitchen when she wants Neo to take notice of the "Know Thyself" plaque above her kitchen door. The man who truly knows himself will also know "why" he makes the decisions he does.

stj wrote: View Post
3) the way the movie offers a self-willed Neo who simply "chooses" to fight Smith to the death, or at least be interpreted as doing something so simple.
Well, I'm unable to understand the theories that claim that Neo could defeat Smith because he was connected to the Source in order to delete Smith. IIRC the other agents ("loyal" to the Matrix) were equally connected to the source but were assimilated by Smith with obvious ease.

By the end of REVOLUTIONS I felt we were looking at the ultimate metaphor: Agent Smith is Neo's evil alter ego but since evil is an inseparable part of each of us, we can't really defeat or eliminate it. So finally Neo does the right thing, he accepts it as it is but the re-unification process also kills him.

stj wrote: View Post
The existence of gay people only in the Inferno but not the Temple was also remarkably annoying.
IIRC I noticed one couple of female dancers in the Temple session that did not look like they had been looking for or lacking male dancing partners.

stj wrote: View Post
The Matrix ended with a man coming back to life to no reason other than the background music. There's no way to rate that movie very highly. Maybe it sounded as if I was damning with faint praise, but that wasn't the intention.
Thomas Anderson had to die before he could truly become "Neo".
IMHO it's a classic of story-telling and in particular the Monomyth.
Just like Yoda told Luke Skywalker "You must unlearn" and shed your previously aquired prejudices and conceptions, the old self has to "die" first before you are truly ready to absorb new and different concepts. Again, IMHO, a metaphor which the Wachowskis illustrated literally and pretty darn good, I should add.

Bob
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Old October 22 2013, 02:43 PM   #88
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Robert Comsol wrote:
I think the "Second Renaissance" made it clear that appearances are deceiving. The whole premise that mankind would willingly darken the sky (to deprive the machines of solar energy) is rather hilarious
Hilarious or not, it seems that's intended to be what happened.
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Old October 22 2013, 02:45 PM   #89
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Chrysalis wrote:
It was a bluff, they can't survive alone now, and the Oracle finally called them on it.
But I thought the Architect was above lying and saw it as a human trait. Doesn't that include bluffing?
I think the Architect honestly believed everything the machines told him or programmed him to be. They needed humans once, to power their early efforts to build their city.

After that the only reason they could ever have needed beyond say, V3.2 was to keep us there out of habit or malice. Or maybe somewhere deep down, they just couldn't bring themselves to kill the human race. They had several chances, but always chose to keep them alive.

The Architect never changed in all his time there, who knows how much communication he even has with the machines anymore, if he even knows if anything about their attitudes changed.

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Chrysalis wrote: View Post
But as to what it is now, 4.0, 3.6 or 3.5.5 or something, I don't know.
Probably Windows 8.1.
Ouch
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Old October 22 2013, 03:04 PM   #90
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Re: is the matrix reloded worth watching

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote:
I think the "Second Renaissance" made it clear that appearances are deceiving. The whole premise that mankind would willingly darken the sky (to deprive the machines of solar energy) is rather hilarious
Hilarious or not, it seems that's intended to be what happened.
Then again, that entire film is told from the machines' perspective. So it's likely to have rather extreme anti-human bias.
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