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Old October 16 2013, 07:50 PM   #16
Christopher
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Re: Khan #1 Review

CaptPapa wrote: View Post
^ Okay, that's pretty clear, thanks.

Keeping in mind I've only watched ST09 a couple of times, and STID not at all; how is nuSpock's emotionalism explained? Vulcan's emotional control obviously extents back before 2233; or is that one of the things that was changed after the new timeline was created? If so, I missed the explanation.
First off: Look at "The Cage," which is set about four years before the 2009 movie (albeit in a different timeline). In that pilot episode, Spock smiles openly. In many of the early episodes, he's more overtly emotional than he later became. Maybe the younger Spock was just less controlled than he became later in life. A lot of people seem to overlook that these movies are depicting younger versions of the characters than the ones we saw in TOS. The time frame of the Abrams movies is about halfway between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before." ("The Cage" was 2254, WNM was 2265, and the movies have taken place mainly in 2258-60.)

Second: Spock saw his mother and his whole planet die right in front of him. It should be self-evident why he would be, in his elder self's words, "emotionally compromised" after such a horrific tragedy.
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Old October 16 2013, 11:43 PM   #17
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Re: Khan #1 Review

I enjoyed this first issue. I thought the artwork was good for the most part and I liked the story. I'm fine with the plastic surgery route. I'm glad they did address the differences in appearance between old and new Khan. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the miniseries.
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Old October 17 2013, 12:13 AM   #18
Julio Angel Ortiz
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Christopher wrote: View Post
CaptPapa wrote: View Post
This begins to address a question I've had, or better yet, I haven't understood. I'm not a fan of the alternate timeline, so I'm ignorant of the 'reality' of it. I thought that since the timeline separated, this new timeline could do whatever it wanted to with events and people, irrespective of established 'history'. Which is why (among other things) I didn't understand the necessity to explain the differences between the Khan appearing in Space Seed/Wrath of Khan, and the Khan appearing in STID.
The altered timeline was created by Nero's ship, the Narada, traveling back to March 2233 and attacking the USS Kelvin. That began a new, altered sequence of events, so a new timeline branched off from the original at that moment. Anything that comes afterward is subject to change. But that didn't alter anything that happened before March 2233. Everything prior to that date is supposed to be the same.

Here's IDW's own chart showing how the one timeline branches into two:

http://www.idwpublishing.com/startrek/timelines.php

Basically it's a Y shape, a fork in the road. Go back before 2233 and there's only the one timeline (well, there are plenty of other parallel ones, but they're not relevant for our purposes).
But one (admittedly fannish) thing I started wondering about since nuTrek premiered has been this:

The Narada is the branching point. So everything thereafter will be different. But consider the series Enterprise that would be a common history for both timelines. Important events in Enterprise spin out from the "Temporal Cold War", where the mysterious players are from further into the future than the TOS / TNG eras. How could those events in Enterprise be the same if the Temporal Cold War futures of Prime Trek and nuTrek are different?

Not being argumentative or anything; I'm just throwing out a thought for discussion.
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Old October 17 2013, 12:32 AM   #19
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Julio Angel Ortiz wrote: View Post
The Narada is the branching point. So everything thereafter will be different. But consider the series Enterprise that would be a common history for both timelines. Important events in Enterprise spin out from the "Temporal Cold War", where the mysterious players are from further into the future than the TOS / TNG eras. How could those events in Enterprise be the same if the Temporal Cold War futures of Prime Trek and nuTrek are different?

Not being argumentative or anything; I'm just throwing out a thought for discussion.
It was never conclusively established that Daniels's future was the same one we saw in TOS through VGR. It had a lot in common with it, but we never really got proof. Heck, we know that the timeline created by the events of ENT was different from Daniels's original timeline. Yet the intention of ENT's producers was to show the events that led to the creation of the Prime history we know, as season 4 in particular makes rather clear. So Daniels may have come from a very similar timeline to the one we know, but not the exact same one.

And really, it stands to reason that a temporal war would involve factions not only from different times, but from different timelines. After all, it's not like there are only the two. Different factions could've been fighting for the survival or dominance of their own timelines at the expense of others.
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Old October 17 2013, 01:50 AM   #20
Julio Angel Ortiz
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Re: Khan #1 Review

^ Works for me.
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Old October 17 2013, 03:22 PM   #21
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Christopher wrote: View Post
CaptPapa wrote: View Post
^ Okay, that's pretty clear, thanks.

Keeping in mind I've only watched ST09 a couple of times, and STID not at all; how is nuSpock's emotionalism explained? Vulcan's emotional control obviously extents back before 2233; or is that one of the things that was changed after the new timeline was created? If so, I missed the explanation.
First off: Look at "The Cage," which is set about four years before the 2009 movie (albeit in a different timeline). In that pilot episode, Spock smiles openly. In many of the early episodes, he's more overtly emotional than he later became. Maybe the younger Spock was just less controlled than he became later in life. A lot of people seem to overlook that these movies are depicting younger versions of the characters than the ones we saw in TOS. The time frame of the Abrams movies is about halfway between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before." ("The Cage" was 2254, WNM was 2265, and the movies have taken place mainly in 2258-60.)

Second: Spock saw his mother and his whole planet die right in front of him. It should be self-evident why he would be, in his elder self's words, "emotionally compromised" after such a horrific tragedy.
I can certainly appreciate the explanation in your second point - you're right, that would affect any being and I hadn't considered that angle. Whether it would lead to a permanent emotional change is debatable though. Personally, I think it was the writers' idea to create interest and put butts in seats.
As for your first point, while accurate, I tend to dismiss Spock's early (and inconsistent) emotions as merely character development - the creative team's doing, not the character's flaws. And I don't mean that as any fault - it's quite natural to have growning pains in a new series like that.
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Old October 18 2013, 01:56 PM   #22
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Re: Khan #1 Review

The first issue was a little too "Ender's Game-y" for my taste, but considering consultant Roberto Orci was one of the writers of the upcoming "Ender's Game" movie, perhaps that's to be expected.

The art was great -- for my money, David Messina is the best artist IDW ever had doing Trek. Unfortunately, he only did the first three pages. The flashbacks, by Claudia Balboni & Marina Castelvetro, are similar to Messina's style, so they didn't feel like they were flown in from a different book, but seemed riddled with anachronisms. I was around in 1972-1985, and I don't remember it looking ANYTHING like how it's depicted here. But I'm probably the only reader on the planet that will be bugged by that!
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Old October 20 2013, 01:39 AM   #23
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Daddy Todd wrote: View Post
I was around in 1972-1985, and I don't remember it looking ANYTHING like how it's depicted here.
I dunno. The computers of '79 were said to be decades ahead of known technology, but there are familiar elements, such as the backs of them with the cords coming out. The 1972 view of New York seems to have the Twin Towers at odd heights; they were both fully constructed by then.
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Old October 20 2013, 02:00 AM   #24
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Daddy Todd wrote: View Post
I was around in 1972-1985, and I don't remember it looking ANYTHING like how it's depicted here.
I dunno. The computers of '79 were said to be decades ahead of known technology, but there are familiar elements, such as the backs of them with the cords coming out. The 1972 view of New York seems to have the Twin Towers at odd heights; they were both fully constructed by then.
In our world. Nothing guarantees that even the "prime timeline" is directly from ours. (and how many heads will explode contemplating that temporal conundrum? )
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Old October 20 2013, 02:35 AM   #25
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Well, of course the Prime timeline isn't ours. It has different laws of physics and biology, and its history diverged from ours decades ago. Plus we have a TV show called Star Trek in our universe.
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Old October 26 2013, 02:06 AM   #26
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Christopher wrote: View Post
It was never conclusively established that Daniels's future was the same one we saw in TOS through VGR.
What about his final appearance? If the post-"Storm Front" timeline - meaning, the real Trek timeline - was any different from what Daniels knew to be true, he would have said something. (Daniels was always very gung-ho about making Archer fulfill his destiny, so if Daniels believed Archer still had work to do in changing the timeline to something Daniels would recognize, he would not have simply let Archer go.)
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Old October 26 2013, 04:50 AM   #27
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Maybe it was just close enough that Daniels was satisfied.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:05 AM   #28
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Re: Khan #1 Review

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
It was never conclusively established that Daniels's future was the same one we saw in TOS through VGR.
What about his final appearance? If the post-"Storm Front" timeline - meaning, the real Trek timeline - was any different from what Daniels knew to be true, he would have said something. (Daniels was always very gung-ho about making Archer fulfill his destiny, so if Daniels believed Archer still had work to do in changing the timeline to something Daniels would recognize, he would not have simply let Archer go.)
There's the little thing about Archer destroying the Delphic Expanse in 2153, when Daniels' history has it expanding for centuries until it fills the quadrant by the 2600's. Trek Prime is definitely not the same timeline he knew.

But who says it's the same Daniels as we saw earlier? We did see one explode in "Cold Front" and another die of rapid ageing in "Storm Front"
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Old October 26 2013, 06:06 AM   #29
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Re: Khan #1 Review

CaptPapa wrote: View Post
Personally, I think it was the writers' idea to create interest and put butts in seats.
Isn't that the goal of every movie writer in human history?
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Old October 27 2013, 06:07 PM   #30
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Re: Khan #1 Review

I enjoyed it. I have no issue if they want to explain away some of the many plot holes in the last movie as long as the story holds my attention, and this one did. My principal issue is that making the movie the Wrath of Khan stole a lot of its emotional resonance - Kirk hadn't really wronged Khan, his relationship with Spock is in its infancy, and the reset button doesn't allow the audience any time to grieve.

If they want to round out Khan and bring him back for a proper showdown sequel in the comics I have no issue with that. I'd still like to see him in charge of a multi-racial (Klingons, Orions etc) terrorist group.
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