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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 12 2013, 06:44 PM   #31
CoveSanta
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Regarding the Ilia character and Deltans in general, I'd like to propose an alternate explanation: Gene Roddenberry was a horndog. In the 1960's, he was restricted a bit by TV censors. In the late 1970's, he felt he would have much more freedom. So he created a species who's defining characteristic was that they have sex all the time. No doubt with the intention of depicting a wide variety of sexual encounters involving scantily clad women, many of whom would likely visit his personal casting couch to get the part. A harsh assessment? Yes. But backed up by what we know of Roddenberry's treatment of women in general.

In-universe, I'm not entirely sure how Deltan society manages to function, though. One description I read of them -- from the novelization perhaps -- says that to Deltans, sex was part of literally every interaction between people and as common as a handshake. Ok, how many people do you casually interact with in a day? How many people do you shake hands with? Imagine if literally every single one of those encounters involved you having sex with them. How would anything ever get done?
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Old October 12 2013, 10:27 PM   #32
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

CoveZombie wrote: View Post
In-universe, I'm not entirely sure how Deltan society manages to function, though. One description I read of them -- from the novelization perhaps -- says that to Deltans, sex was part of literally every interaction between people and as common as a handshake. Ok, how many people do you casually interact with in a day? How many people do you shake hands with? Imagine if literally every single one of those encounters involved you having sex with them. How would anything ever get done?
Look up bonobos (pygmy chimpanzees) on Wikipedia. They're pretty much proof of concept for this.
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Old October 13 2013, 11:35 AM   #33
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
5) Given all of the rereleases of older material with new edits, do we know what is considered "canon" about these movies?
You're mistaken about what canon is... and what it isn't. All of the versions of the film and all the edits are canon.
Not necessarily. In all of Richard Arnold's posts about "what is canon?" in "The Communicator", he never mentioned alternate takes and director's editions. He specified that canon was live-action, aired Trek, but this was before any director's editions came out on DVD. He did rule out extra info in novelizations, TAS, media tie-ins and live-action footage featured in tie-in computer games, "A Star Trek Adventure" at Universal, and "The Experience" rides.
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Old October 13 2013, 12:09 PM   #34
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

But the point is that the answer to "What is canon?" is that canon is something mutable and often self-contradictory, something that can be changed and reinterpreted by its own creators. It's not some simplistic seal of approval that you can stick on something to declare it "real" once and for all so that there's no further need to think or wonder. There's always going to be a need for the audience to evaluate and choose for themselves.

In other words, what is canon is every official screen production, but what is "real" within the canon when it contradicts itself is up to the viewer's judgment. Canon is not the final, pre-emptive answer that many people want it to be.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:27 AM   #35
Hober Mallow
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
But the point is that the answer to "What is canon?" is that canon is something mutable and often self-contradictory, something that can be changed and reinterpreted by its own creators. It's not some simplistic seal of approval that you can stick on something to declare it "real" once and for all so that there's no further need to think or wonder. There's always going to be a need for the audience to evaluate and choose for themselves.

In other words, what is canon is every official screen production, but what is "real" within the canon when it contradicts itself is up to the viewer's judgment. Canon is not the final, pre-emptive answer that many people want it to be.
Exactly. Canon simply is; it's not something which must be declared by a higher authority. All of the editions of TMP are part of Star Trek canon -- at least Star Trek movie canon. Which edition is to be regarded in the viewer's mind as part of a larger body of continuity is entirely up to the viewer. Not Richard Arnold.
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Old October 15 2013, 09:30 PM   #36
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Canon simply is; it's not something which must be declared by a higher authority.
Except when its delivered as a directive to the media tie-in licensees. When a higher authority tells the licensee what can and can't be used to inform the product being created.

For a time, DC Comics had to publish a comic that was meant to only adapt concepts presented in ST:TMP (although numerous TOS elements crept in).

For a time, the novels and comics had to ignore TAS (and each other), and concentrate mainly on the canonical backgrounds of the main casts of TOS and TNG.
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Old October 15 2013, 10:43 PM   #37
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Canon simply is; it's not something which must be declared by a higher authority.
Except when its delivered as a directive to the media tie-in licensees. When a higher authority tells the licensee what can and can't be used to inform the product being created.
I think what Hober meant is that it isn't imposed on the creators of the show itself by some higher authority; the show (or the original work in whatever medium) is automatically the canon by definition. What you're talking about, a licensing department that supervises tie-in creation, is not a higher authority in comparison to the creators of the canon, but a subordinate or parallel one. They're people hired by the studio to oversee the licensed merchandise. They have approval over the tie-ins, but they're following the lead of the canon. They are not defining the canon, merely keeping track of it and helping tie-ins stay consistent with it. Whatever authority they have is on behalf of the producers, or rather, the studio.

By analogy, if the producers are like a legislature laying down the laws, the licensing department is like a federal agency responsible for ensuring the laws are followed. They're subordinate to the lawmakers. And the licensees like Pocket and IDW would be akin to, say, government contractors.
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Old October 19 2013, 06:46 AM   #38
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

One thing I've never understood about The Motion Picture is the use of Ilia's theme at the beginning of the movie, accompanied by a black screen for the duration of it. It's a beautiful piece of music, but the inclusion just seems to draw the film out even more.

The character certainly plays a pivotal part in the film, but to that extent?
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Old October 19 2013, 09:18 AM   #39
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Other anomalies/observations...

1) Why weren't more of the aliens depicted in the RecDeck scene used in other places in the film? The Rec Deck scene gives the impression of a fairly diverse crew for the Enterprise, yet once she is underway, just about all of the aliens disappear
In addition to the other explanations offered, it was stated that many of the people wearing those costumes were not really actors, but well-known fans (ie. Bjo Trimble) or authors such as David Gerrold. These people were given a small part in the movie as a "thank you" for their years of support.

As to why nobody else ever wore those costumes... maybe they were constructed to fit a particular person?

CoveZombie wrote: View Post
In-universe, I'm not entirely sure how Deltan society manages to function, though. One description I read of them -- from the novelization perhaps -- says that to Deltans, sex was part of literally every interaction between people and as common as a handshake. Ok, how many people do you casually interact with in a day? How many people do you shake hands with? Imagine if literally every single one of those encounters involved you having sex with them. How would anything ever get done?
Not all sexual acts or encounters involve going to bed/having actual intercourse.
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Old October 19 2013, 09:25 AM   #40
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Timewalker wrote: View Post
In addition to the other explanations offered, it was stated that many of the people wearing those costumes were not really actors, but well-known fans (ie. Bjo Trimble) or authors such as David Gerrold. These people were given a small part in the movie as a "thank you" for their years of support.

As to why nobody else ever wore those costumes... maybe they were constructed to fit a particular person?
It's also possible that the costumes weren't up to snuff for any lengthy screen-time duration. From what little I've seen of those masks, they make the Antican And Selay masks from The Next Generation look life-like and flexible by comparison.
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Old October 19 2013, 10:19 AM   #41
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
One thing I've never understood about The Motion Picture is the use of Ilia's theme at the beginning of the movie, accompanied by a black screen for the duration of it. It's a beautiful piece of music, but the inclusion just seems to draw the film out even more.
ST:TMP was one of the last motion pictures to come with an overture attached to the front of the first reel. In the good ol' days, trailers were at the end of a movie (trailing it) and overtures were played as people took their seats, played over the curtain, which then opened to show the screen for the beginning of the film.

Wikipedia says that TMP and The Black Hole were the only feature films to use an overture from the end of 1979 until the year 2000 (with the movie Dancer in the Dark).

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
It's also possible that the costumes weren't up to snuff for any lengthy screen-time duration.
Well, few of the over-the-head slip rubber masks were made to permit speech, and yes, some of the aliens were played by Trek fan, and the uniforms worn by some of the rec deck personnel had tennis shoes covered by fabric.

http://therinofandor.blogspot.com.au...o-do-this.html
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Old October 19 2013, 10:39 AM   #42
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
ST:TMP was one of the last motion pictures to come with an overture attached to the front of the first reel. In the good ol' days, trailers were at the end of a movie (trailing it) and overtures were played as people took their seats, played over the curtain, which then opened to show the screen for the beginning of the film.
That's interesting to know. I must've perceived it differently, as I originally saw TMP at the *gulp* drive-in!

Still, Ilia's theme seems odd to me. A "Kirk" or "Spock" or "Enterprise" theme would seem apt. I could be biased, though: who waited ten years for new Star Trek to see some bald chick they'd never heard about?*

Funny thing with Ilia, for all she was promoted, she was pretty thin soup as a character. In fact, her exchange with Decker in the movie is pretty much (to me anyway) no different than the Chekov/Irina exchange in The Way to Eden! I'll have to do a side-by-side comparison view of those!

*Bear in mind these were my reactions from 30 years ago!
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Old October 19 2013, 04:44 PM   #43
Santa Kang
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Other anomalies/observations...

1) Why weren't more of the aliens depicted in the RecDeck scene used in other places in the film? The Rec Deck scene gives the impression of a fairly diverse crew for the Enterprise, yet once she is underway, just about all of the aliens disappear
In addition to the other explanations offered, it was stated that many of the people wearing those costumes were not really actors, but well-known fans (ie. Bjo Trimble) or authors such as David Gerrold. These people were given a small part in the movie as a "thank you" for their years of support.

As to why nobody else ever wore those costumes... maybe they were constructed to fit a particular person?
None of those people played aliens, so it doesn't really answer the question.

Many of the costumes used in TMP were reused as the Starfleet jumpsuits and Regula One costumes seen in TWOK.
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Old October 19 2013, 08:59 PM   #44
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Still, Ilia's theme seems odd to me. A "Kirk" or "Spock" or "Enterprise" theme would seem apt. I could be biased, though: who waited ten years for new Star Trek to see some bald chick they'd never heard about?
The Enterprise theme is basically the main title, no? Since that immediately follows the overture, it would be kind of odd to hear the same thing back-to-back.
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Old October 19 2013, 10:03 PM   #45
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Well, on the soundtrack, the overture is titled "Ilia's Theme," not "Overture." So I've always kind of figured that Goldsmith used the theme as the overture because he hadn't been able to make a full statement of it elsewhere in the film, just variations and snatches. Normally an overture -- to an opera or a film score -- is a medley of themes from the main score (not unlike the structure of movie end title music). The West Side Story film overture is a case in point. But this is just a single cue, leading me to wonder if it wasn't originally meant as the overture.
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