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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 17 2013, 03:41 PM   #16
R. Star
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Jon-o'-lantern wrote: View Post
^ If anything it would be Harry Kim was treated as the O'Brien of VOY given DS9 came first.
When crap happened to O'brien I felt bad for him. WHen it happened to Kim it usually was funny.
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Old October 17 2013, 03:51 PM   #17
SchwEnt
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Yes, many questions in this eps.

The Agrathi penal system may not be about corrections or rehabilitation or deterrence, only punishment. And then Agrathi may not want to inflict "real" punishment because of reasons, so they create "virtual" punishments.

And a criminal without remorse or conscience wouldn't suffer as O'Brien did, so perhaps each punishment is uniquely created for each criminal.

This Agrathi mind technology may extend well beyond their criminal justice system. It may be used extensively in all aspects of their society, as reward and punishment and more.

Many questions.
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Old October 17 2013, 04:34 PM   #18
Lindley
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
This comes close to the same logic as one should be able to reason or pray themselves out of mental illness, a position that is fraught at best.
The position is 'causing or affected by great anxiety or stress' at best?
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Old October 17 2013, 07:07 PM   #19
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Yeah, I always figured the program was tailored to the offender. A child rapist would probably end up with a cell mate who constantly rapes him, a murderer would probably be beaten by his cell mate routinely and so forth.
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Old October 17 2013, 08:01 PM   #20
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Lindley wrote: View Post
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
This comes close to the same logic as one should be able to reason or pray themselves out of mental illness, a position that is fraught at best.
The position is 'causing or affected by great anxiety or stress' at best?
The position being the one taken by the people dealing with mental illness, not the OP.
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Old October 17 2013, 10:43 PM   #21
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

I think the reason he brought up mental illness is that he believes just the experience would cause emotional trauma even if you know it's fake, so it sounded like I was saying 'You should be able to overcome PTSD through willpower' or something.

I would argue that, knowing it was fake, it would not cause the same emotional trauma. I suppose maybe if they did something to block out your knowledge that it's fake during the simulation. But it's not the same as getting emotionally involved in a holodeck program. When you enter a holodeck the goal is to become emotionally involved. You are putting yourself in a state where you are emotionally receptive to something you know not to be real, in this simulation you would not do this.

I suppose if there was physical pain involved you could easily develop PTSD from the experience, but again, I'd argue that'd be more difficult if you were able to carry the knowledge that none of it would have any lasting real life consequences. For O'Brien a big part of what made is so traumatizing was the belief that he was seriously in danger of starving to death and the belief he would never see his family again. I absolutely believe it would have cushioned the blow and changed his attitude toward his cell mate if he knew no real time was passing, he would definitely see his family again in the same state he left them, and he was in no danger of death.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:31 PM   #22
Tosk
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
Fraught with what?
Fraught doesn't need with. It's an adjective.
Me fail English? That's unpossible!
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Old October 18 2013, 05:47 AM   #23
SignGuyHPW
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

I think it'd work the same mentally as when people have a dream and during such think it's a real experience or if they were hypnotised and think something imaginary is really happening. It's the same principle as when Garak was hit by the Cardassian gaurd while in the version of the Great Link, but started to really bleed as a psycho-symatic response in the real infirmary.

As long as O'Brien percieved the experience as real then it'd have the same effects on him as if it were real. I think the point behind this system was that they didn't have to house the criminals and care for them in order for the punishment to take place.
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Old October 18 2013, 01:20 PM   #24
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I think the reason he brought up mental illness is that he believes just the experience would cause emotional trauma even if you know it's fake, so it sounded like I was saying 'You should be able to overcome PTSD through willpower' or something.

I would argue that, knowing it was fake, it would not cause the same emotional trauma. I suppose maybe if they did something to block out your knowledge that it's fake during the simulation. But it's not the same as getting emotionally involved in a holodeck program. When you enter a holodeck the goal is to become emotionally involved. You are putting yourself in a state where you are emotionally receptive to something you know not to be real, in this simulation you would not do this.

I suppose if there was physical pain involved you could easily develop PTSD from the experience, but again, I'd argue that'd be more difficult if you were able to carry the knowledge that none of it would have any lasting real life consequences. For O'Brien a big part of what made is so traumatizing was the belief that he was seriously in danger of starving to death and the belief he would never see his family again. I absolutely believe it would have cushioned the blow and changed his attitude toward his cell mate if he knew no real time was passing, he would definitely see his family again in the same state he left them, and he was in no danger of death.
Disregarding the particulars of the episode and the technobabbly explanation that might come if the writers were pushed, false memories are still memories. In spite of the fact there was no real event, they are nonetheless in memory, and years of therapy are required to recover from them, if not a lifetime.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:09 PM   #25
Reeborg
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post

Disregarding the particulars of the episode and the technobabbly explanation that might come if the writers were pushed, false memories are still memories. In spite of the fact there was no real event, they are nonetheless in memory, and years of therapy are required to recover from them, if not a lifetime.
What would happen if somebody (convincingly) told you that all you life was just a fake memory induced by technology? Would this change your personality and state of mind because of those experiences and memories. I would guess no, you would still be the same, especially when they would (convincingly) tell that the responses to stimula were really your own.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:53 PM   #26
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

I don't buy that psychosomatic Matrix stuff they do in dream world episodes. The way you could die in The Thaw made absolutely no sense. The 'If you think you die you die' stuff is just a scifi plot contrivance to add danger to virtual world stories.

I agree the emotional experiences would feel real, IF, as in O'Brien's case, you believed the simulation to be reality. If you knew it all to be fake, you knew it would not leave lasting physical damage and that it had a definite end date, you would not emotionally react the same way.

Consider these scenarios:

A) A person walked up to you and said "I am going to punch you for five minutes, then I am going to stop. It will be very painful but I will not beat you bad enough to actually kill you or leave any permanent physical damage.", and you had reason to believe he was telling the truth. Then he did so exactly as promised.

B) A person walks up to you and starts punching you, without telling you anything. Then after five minutes he stops.

I would argue, B would be a lot more emotionally traumatic for you. In the case of A you can mentally prepare yourself for exactly five minutes of punching. You know exactly when it will be over and you know you will not die. In B, you don't know what's going on, you don't know when he's going to stop or if he's going to stop, and you don't know if he's going to leave you alive. Also you don't know whether it's going to happen again in the future.

Part of the psychological effect of torment happens because your brain and your emotional and physical reactions readjust themselves to deal with the torment, and then they can't readjust back after. If you knew it was fake, and knew exactly when it was going to end and you would not suffer any permanent damage, your brain would not readjust itself the same way, and simply brace itself for the specific amount of torment it knows it will receive.

And you know there's got to be criminals out there who know what it's like, have figured out ways to endure it better, and tell their buddies all about it, so that's even more mental and emotional preparation.


Reeborg wrote: View Post

What would happen if somebody (convincingly) told you that all you life was just a fake memory induced by technology? Would this change your personality and state of mind because of those experiences and memories. I would guess no, you would still be the same, especially when they would (convincingly) tell that the responses to stimula were really your own.

Of course it wouldn't change my personality. But, moving forward, knowing it was all fake, my personality would develop far differently than it would if I did not know. It's all about whether you know it's fake during the experience or not.
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Old October 18 2013, 05:59 PM   #27
R. Star
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Stands to reason if they can implant interactive memory programs into anyone's brain, even aliens, it would be a small thing to erase any details of prior knowledge of their penal system and how it works.
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Old October 19 2013, 06:09 AM   #28
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

The Argrathi had better consider themselves lucky that Sisko didn't dispatch the Defiant to fire a few warning shots across their bow, in response to what was pretty much an act of war on the Argrathi's part.
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Old October 19 2013, 06:23 AM   #29
Anwar
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

Again, this all makes me wonder why the heck these guys don't bother creating rehabilitation simulations instead of needlessly traumatizing guys and then turning said trauma cases loose on the world. That way the criminals still get the years of simulation, but now they're more ready to re-enter society as not-headcases.
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Old October 25 2013, 12:11 AM   #30
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Re: Hard Time: Really as effective a punishment?

This is like my least favorite episode of DS9 for some reason lol.
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