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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 18 2013, 04:15 PM   #76
grendelsbayne
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

DonIago wrote: View Post
I think the argument that the colonists couldn't be moved fails as it's never raised in any episodes. There's never a "Oh crap, we need to move the colonists but have no place to put them!" moment.
I thought it was fairly clearly stated that they expressly did have the option to leave, but that they simply didn't want to. Of course, it's been a long time since I've seen TNG, so I may be wrong.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:18 PM   #77
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

That's the impression I got as well.
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Old October 24 2013, 07:23 AM   #78
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Your location says you're from California.. would you feel the same if the US ceded California to Mexico as part of an agreement to stop drug cartel violence, and the Mexican Army began to oppress the people there? You'd just up and leave and not care because the rest of the US is prosperous? Even if it was your own family that was indiscriminately targeted?
ESPECIALLY if it was my own family that was targeted. I'd be pissed off, but I wouldn't keep them in a dangerous place.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
it's been a long time since I've seen TNG, so I may be wrong.
I think this is the crux of the difference of opinion in this thread. The Maquis were portrayed quite differently in Journey's End & Preemptive Strike than they were in The Maquis. I remember watching the Native Americans in Journey's End and feeling no sympathy for their cause. Yes, your ancestors were f**ked over, but so what? Just move and be safe (and help form a peace) rather than digging your heels in.
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Old October 24 2013, 10:29 AM   #79
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Does it really matter whether The Maquis were right or wrong to live where they were living? This episode was never about Sisko's view of The Maquis, it was about his view of one man who betrayed him, and the insane lengths he would go to have his ego sated.

Sisko poisoned two maquis colonies, potentially killing thousands of people if they could not evacuate in time all for the sake of sticking it to a guy who got the better of him. As much as i love The Sisko i could never agree with his actions and i think this episode conveniently gets forgotten whenever there is a 'sisko is better than janeway'/'sisko is the best captain' thread.

Janeway cops so much flak for her actions in 'equinox' Whilst her actions were unbecoming of a Starfleet Captain, she did it to stop a man who not only was killing an innocent alien species for fuel but had also attempted to murder her entire crew by taking the only protection they had.

Eddington was aiding the Maquis because of his own desire to be a hero and to support something he clearly believed was right. Eddington didn't join the maquis to spite sisko, yet sisko had to take it personally. So Eddington stole some replicators, the way sisko responded you would think the guy had killed Jake

Was sisko a javert? No, because from what i remember of les miserables, javert sounds a hell of a lot like odo and his need for order and justice. Sisko was not motivated by justice when he went after eddington it was ego fueled revenge.
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Old October 24 2013, 02:43 PM   #80
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Your argument would be stronger if there was any evidence that anyone actually did die. Also, Sisko only poisoned one colony, and as his own log indicates, the worst thing that happens is that the displaced Cardassians and Maquis swap planets. It's certainly not conventional, but it doesn't seem to have been especially horrific either.
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Old October 25 2013, 12:54 AM   #81
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Eddington's switching sides wasn't particularly horrific either. He had no vendetta against Sisko and did what he did to support a cause he thought was right. The guy stole some replicators, which i'm sure the Federation would have easily replaced. Whilst Eddington also betrayed his oath and uniform That was never Sisko's motivation for going after him.

I know that no one died but whether people were killed is irrelevant to the point i'm trying to make. Sisko turned into a raving lunatic who poisoned a planet putting innocent lives at risk and initially displacing hundreds possibly thousands of people. He did this not because Eddington was a Maquis, but because Eddington bruised his ego and made him look like a fool.
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Old October 25 2013, 02:20 AM   #82
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
Eddington's switching sides wasn't particularly horrific either. He had no vendetta against Sisko and did what he did to support a cause he thought was right. The guy stole some replicators, which i'm sure the Federation would have easily replaced. Whilst Eddington also betrayed his oath and uniform That was never Sisko's motivation for going after him.

I know that no one died but whether people were killed is irrelevant to the point i'm trying to make. Sisko turned into a raving lunatic who poisoned a planet putting innocent lives at risk and initially displacing hundreds possibly thousands of people. He did this not because Eddington was a Maquis, but because Eddington bruised his ego and made him look like a fool.
He betrayed Sisko trust, that was bad enough.

A commanding officer believes he should trust the man under his command.

And Eddington did betray his Uniform. He did it by stealing from the Federation, he did it by attacking Federation ships, he did it the moment he used Biogenic warheads on a planet full of civilians and then crippled escaping Civilians fleeing from his unprovoked attack.

Which is a major difference.

These Cardarssian Colonist where the innocent party here. They took no part in what happened to the Marquis. They where just living their life when the Marquis attacked.

But hey , is Ok right. The Marquis are the underdogs, the good guys. So what if Cardarssian lives where uprooted and could have ended up dead. The Marquis are the true victims, they where betrayed by the Federation so it makes their act of Terrorism on a civilian Target all ok.

Because they where Cardies after all.

At least Sisko gave the Marquis a heads up.

As for Sisko turning into a raving loonie, he didn't really turn into one. He acted as he always has , what ever needs doing he did. But hey if Eddington wanted to play the gloating, holier then thou Rebel for a cause. Then to protect the peace Sisko was more then happy to play the villain .

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Old October 25 2013, 02:25 AM   #83
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

The problem is they never made the Maquis "bad" enough for the fans to understand the obsession with hunting them down.

They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC. Show them doing something downright evil would make it understandable, but for the most part it was self defense.

For the most part I think the fans think the Maquis were more foolish than evil because they choose to stay on planets they were previously warned were in dangerous dispute.

TOS, TNG made a point of saying the Fed is super prosperous. Colonization is shown mainly as a challenge not a necessity.

So I don't always understand the Maquis.
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Old October 25 2013, 02:36 AM   #84
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

IRC the people on the colony that Sisko attacked, were not part of Eddington's attack on the cardassians. That makes them just as innocent as the cardassians.

At no point did i say that Eddington was was right for what he did. Nor did i say that the Maquis were helpless victims. I'm not defending Eddington or the Maquis. I'm stating my point of view that Sisko's vendetta against Eddington, had nothing to do with his stealing federation supplies or attacking cardassians colonies. It came from the fact that Eddington outwitted him and played him for a fool.

Last edited by mickmike; October 25 2013 at 02:40 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old October 25 2013, 11:21 AM   #85
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC. Show them doing something downright evil would make it understandable, but for the most part it was self defense.
That's not true, the Maquis actions had the potential to reignite the war between the Cardassians and the Federation.

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Old October 25 2013, 11:35 AM   #86
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
The problem is they never made the Maquis "bad" enough for the fans to understand the obsession with hunting them down.

They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC.
They attacked the USS Malinche. True, they didn't destroy it, but they still attacked it.

And T'Unspeakable is absolutely correct: the Maquis were poised to reignite the Federation/Cardassian war. Their actions were a direct threat to a very fragile peace.
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Old October 25 2013, 11:37 AM   #87
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC. Show them doing something downright evil would make it understandable, but for the most part it was self defense.
That's not true, the Maquis actions had the potential to reignite the war between the Cardassians and the Federation.

True, but the problem is in episodes like Pre Emptive Strike, they showed things like Cardassians sneaking into a human colony and then opening fire and killing innocent civilians.

Showing the Maquis in a sympathetic light like that, and then later branding them as villains that Starfleet and Sisko are obsessed with hunting down seems odd looking.


So it's not a surprise if some fans don't see the Maquis as villains. It's almost as if the show had to make the Maquis characters seem almost immoral, in order to justify the heroes of the show going after them.
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Old October 25 2013, 09:21 PM   #88
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
The problem is they never made the Maquis "bad" enough for the fans to understand the obsession with hunting them down.

They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC.
They attacked the USS Malinche. True, they didn't destroy it, but they still attacked it.

And T'Unspeakable is absolutely correct: the Maquis were poised to reignite the Federation/Cardassian war. Their actions were a direct threat to a very fragile peace.
They attacked the Malinche? Oh you mean that ship that was sent to hunt them down. How dastardly they defended themselves.

Certainly it was the Maquis who were threatening the peace and not the actions of the Cardassians. They would never do anything like forcing a war that draws every major power in the quadrant into it.
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Old October 25 2013, 09:34 PM   #89
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
The problem is they never made the Maquis "bad" enough for the fans to understand the obsession with hunting them down.

They left the Federation, but did not attack it, IIRC.
They attacked the USS Malinche. True, they didn't destroy it, but they still attacked it.

And T'Unspeakable is absolutely correct: the Maquis were poised to reignite the Federation/Cardassian war. Their actions were a direct threat to a very fragile peace.
They attacked the Malinche? Oh you mean that ship that was sent to hunt them down. How dastardly they defended themselves.

Certainly it was the Maquis who were threatening the peace and not the actions of the Cardassians. They would never do anything like forcing a war that draws every major power in the quadrant into it.
Yes, the ship hunting down renegade Federation colonist using stolen Federation tech to cause raids in Cardassian occupied space. You know, space now belonging to Cardassians.

So yeah, they get hunted down for that. They get hunted down for nearly starting a war .

Where they oppressed, yup. Where they wronged, yup.

But they had options.

They could have moved. They could have , but they chose not to. They chose to fight for their home.

Is it noble, yup . But what did they expect, they knew what the Cardassian military where like. They where told the space belonged to Cardassia , and they stayed.

So feeling abandoned ( which they where ) they fought. And nearly started a war. And stole from the Federation , and attacked other Cardassian colonists.

You can't point the finger at the Cardarsian Military because it was their space as per the treaty. The actions taken by the disgruntled colonist and the Federation officers that flocked to their banner reflected on the Federation. So yeah ,they came after them.

They came after them to keep the peace. They came after them for threatening a treaty, for stealing Federation supplies. They came after them.

Was it fair, no . But in Ds9 we where showed in reality the Federation is flawed, to keep the peace they screwed the colonist over.

As for Sisko tactics, if the Marquis hadn't given him the idea then they don't get to bitch about it. As for Sisko obsession with Edington, well we all got flaws. Sisko does not take betrayal well, and Edington belives his cause is just and above reproach. The Marquis are determined to fight a battle that need not be fought and the Federation buys into its own Utopian viewpoint.
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Old October 26 2013, 05:26 AM   #90
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post

They attacked the Malinche? Oh you mean that ship that was sent to hunt them down. How dastardly they defended themselves.
Starfleet had every right to send the Malinche after the Maquis. It was the Malinche's mission, written and carried out under the law. That's what a lot of people seem to be forgetting here.

To say that the Maquis were defending themselves against the Malinche (which is a non-starter on the face of it, since the Malinche's mission was not to destroy the Maquis, just capture them) is the moral equivalent of saying that a criminal has the "right" to defend himself against the police pursuing him. They are effectively the same, really: The Maquis are criminals, and the Federation is the law. That's the end of it, really.

You don't like the Federation? You don't like the treaty they signed? Fine. There are options. Work within the system. BE the system. Do not become terrorists. No one has the right to do that.

And here's another example: The Fugitive. A lot of people thought - correctly, as it turned out - that Richard Kimble was unjustly accused and that Inspector Gerard had no right to pursue him. But as Gerard himself pointed out, it is not his job to decide Kimble's guilt or innocence. Gerard is a police detective sent to hunt down and capture an escaped convict. Kimble may later argue his innocence in court, but he did not have the right to run from Gerard. That's a matter for the legal system to decide. SAME STORY HERE. Federation = Gerard; Maquis = Kimble. End of story.
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