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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 15 2013, 01:24 AM   #16
ChowdaHead
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
IIRC, Abrams says in the commentary that he was tinkering with the mind meld scene right up until 2 weeks prior to the film's theatrical release. That's the reason there are a few discontinuities between Countdown and the movie (in the movie, Romulus is destroyed while Spock is en route, in the comic it happened before he had even launched)

There's also an early script at IMSDB (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Trek.html), where Spock deliberately opens a second black hole, intentionally travelling back in time to try and save Romulus. It talks about the supernova being an "untreated cancer" that would "destroy everything" and that Nero was on a mission to prevent Spock from stopping the supernova, believing that if Romulus was allowed to die, all planets should share its fate.

Add to that, the first draft of Countdown apparently featured the destruction of Earth as well as Romulus, and it was apparently only through the intervention of Cryptic (whose Star Trek Online videogame plans would have totally ruined by mass destruction in the Alpha Quadrant) that the destruction was scaled back somewhat. More details here: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=205504


With all those changes, I'm not surprised the final version came out a little jumbled.
trust me friend, I truly want to believe it was originally intended to be a distant star and not Romulus' sun. but I still have heard nothing in this thread to change my current mindset. I still believe this is a major clutzy move. and im a huge fan of this film. this part just stings me.
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Old October 15 2013, 02:36 AM   #17
ChowdaHead
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
IIRC, Abrams says in the commentary that he was tinkering with the mind meld scene right up until 2 weeks prior to the film's theatrical release. That's the reason there are a few discontinuities between Countdown and the movie (in the movie, Romulus is destroyed while Spock is en route, in the comic it happened before he had even launched)

There's also an early script at IMSDB (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Trek.html), where Spock deliberately opens a second black hole, intentionally travelling back in time to try and save Romulus. It talks about the supernova being an "untreated cancer" that would "destroy everything" and that Nero was on a mission to prevent Spock from stopping the supernova, believing that if Romulus was allowed to die, all planets should share its fate.

Add to that, the first draft of Countdown apparently featured the destruction of Earth as well as Romulus, and it was apparently only through the intervention of Cryptic (whose Star Trek Online videogame plans would have totally ruined by mass destruction in the Alpha Quadrant) that the destruction was scaled back somewhat. More details here: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=205504


With all those changes, I'm not surprised the final version came out a little jumbled.
King Daniel. I apologize. I just saw your line about the script I don't know how I read over that, or maybe because I was on a break at work while reading it as well as eating at the same time I wasn't paying close enough attention. I went and read the script online. it does say the supernova originally happened and spock witnessed the beginning of it, and then discussions were had about what to do, untreated cancer... etc. so thanks a lot for helping me clear that up. it really bothered me for a while! I honestly think this movie is so much fun and one of my favorite trek films. im not afraid to say it. the science is no worse than any other trek film. in fact, I would argue the genesis in WOK is far worse than some crazy supernova that has the ability to destroy the galaxy. thanks to everyone who put in their 2 cents.

Last edited by ChowdaHead; October 15 2013 at 03:12 AM. Reason: to correct an a false statement
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Old October 15 2013, 02:51 AM   #18
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If it was the Romulan homestar that exploded, Spock also wouldn't have had time to do what he did. Remember, the explosion occurs at the very start of the meld, and then Spock...

- Promises the Romulans that he would save their planet.
And there's absolutely no way he can save Romulus if it's the Romulan home star that goes supernova. If that's the case, the planet is toast. Even if he had been able to somehow know in advance that the supernova was going to happen, or was somehow able to get to the system before the planet was consumed, he'd still be unleashing a black hole on the star in the Romulan system. It's game over for Romulus.
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Old October 15 2013, 03:14 AM   #19
ChowdaHead
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

Set Harth wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If it was the Romulan homestar that exploded, Spock also wouldn't have had time to do what he did. Remember, the explosion occurs at the very start of the meld, and then Spock...

- Promises the Romulans that he would save their planet.
And there's absolutely no way he can save Romulus if it's the Romulan home star that goes supernova. If that's the case, the planet is toast. Even if he had been able to somehow know in advance that the supernova was going to happen, or was somehow able to get to the system before the planet was consumed, he'd still be unleashing a black hole on the star in the Romulan system. It's game over for Romulus.
absolutely. I realize this. my initial point was that I felt maybe the writers and jj just screwed up and missed the fact that this action would still destroy Romulus.
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Old October 15 2013, 09:47 AM   #20
F. King Daniel
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
King Daniel. I apologize. I just saw your line about the script I don't know how I read over that, or maybe because I was on a break at work while reading it as well as eating at the same time I wasn't paying close enough attention. I went and read the script online. it does say the supernova originally happened and spock witnessed the beginning of it, and then discussions were had about what to do, untreated cancer... etc. so thanks a lot for helping me clear that up. it really bothered me for a while! I honestly think this movie is so much fun and one of my favorite trek films. im not afraid to say it. the science is no worse than any other trek film. in fact, I would argue the genesis in WOK is far worse than some crazy supernova that has the ability to destroy the galaxy. thanks to everyone who put in their 2 cents.
No worries. I'm glad to help!
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Old October 15 2013, 02:19 PM   #21
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Spock is not prone to hyperbole.
But the writers are ...
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Old October 17 2013, 02:24 AM   #22
Set Harth
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
absolutely. I realize this. my initial point was that I felt maybe the writers and jj just screwed up and missed the fact that this action would still destroy Romulus.
These are the writers who wrote in the dialogue that the supernova threatened the galaxy, so I doubt it.
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Old October 17 2013, 03:00 AM   #23
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

Set Harth wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
absolutely. I realize this. my initial point was that I felt maybe the writers and jj just screwed up and missed the fact that this action would still destroy Romulus.
These are the writers who wrote in the dialogue that the supernova threatened the galaxy, so I doubt it.
well, considering a supernova did threaten the galaxy, I don't see a problem. you may, but then id assume you have a problem with a lot of plot points in most of the trek films/television series.
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Old October 17 2013, 03:47 AM   #24
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

If "hobus" is Romulus's own primary, Spock's plan doesn't help and would probably screw the planet just as thoroughly as the supernova. If "hobus" is not Romulus's own primary, there should have been months at least from the time the star goes nova to the time Romulus is in any danger. In either case, a supernova is a process that takes millions of years. The Romulans would have had a lot of warning.

There's no getting around it. This part of '09 has enormous plot holes.
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Old October 17 2013, 05:13 AM   #25
Set Harth
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
absolutely. I realize this. my initial point was that I felt maybe the writers and jj just screwed up and missed the fact that this action would still destroy Romulus.
These are the writers who wrote in the dialogue that the supernova threatened the galaxy, so I doubt it.
well, considering a supernova did threaten the galaxy, I don't see a problem. you may, but then id assume you have a problem with a lot of plot points in most of the trek films/television series.
If I told you I had even the vaguest understanding of how the above serves as a meaningful or appropriate response to my post, I'd be lying.

Since the writers invented a supernova that threatened the galaxy, Hobus does not have to be the sun of Romulus in order for Romulus to be threatened. Thus there is no indication that the writers "screwed up" on this point. "I doubt it" was not meant to be taken as an indication that I saw a problem; it was intended to mean that I did not.

-Brett- wrote:
If "hobus" is not Romulus's own primary, there should have been months at least from the time the star goes nova to the time Romulus is in any danger.
The fictional long-range supernova invented by the writers follows its own rules, just like fictional red matter black hole time travel does.
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Old October 17 2013, 07:43 AM   #26
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

After all these years I thought we just made up our own reasons why "such and such" happens in Trek. Is there any reason why the Hobus star couldn't have produced an unusual looking subspace shockwave, like Praxis did?
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Old October 17 2013, 07:34 PM   #27
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

Captain_Amasov wrote: View Post
After all these years I thought we just made up our own reasons why "such and such" happens in Trek. Is there any reason why the Hobus star couldn't have produced an unusual looking subspace shockwave, like Praxis did?
Except that in the comic and flashback, the star just keeps on going nova, getting magically bigger that it will actually consume the galaxy in massive perfectly spherical fireball.
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Old October 17 2013, 08:39 PM   #28
ChowdaHead
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

-Brett- wrote: View Post
If "hobus" is Romulus's own primary, Spock's plan doesn't help and would probably screw the planet just as thoroughly as the supernova. If "hobus" is not Romulus's own primary, there should have been months at least from the time the star goes nova to the time Romulus is in any danger. In either case, a supernova is a process that takes millions of years. The Romulans would have had a lot of warning.

There's no getting around it. This part of '09 has enormous plot holes.
its not an ordinary supernova, obviously. it took out a planet. on screen. it was said to have threatened the galaxy. its just a supernova with fantasy elements. like genesis or praxis and the multiple other strange phenomena in star trek
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Old October 17 2013, 08:41 PM   #29
ChowdaHead
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

Set Harth wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post

These are the writers who wrote in the dialogue that the supernova threatened the galaxy, so I doubt it.
well, considering a supernova did threaten the galaxy, I don't see a problem. you may, but then id assume you have a problem with a lot of plot points in most of the trek films/television series.
If I told you I had even the vaguest understanding of how the above serves as a meaningful or appropriate response to my post, I'd be lying.

Since the writers invented a supernova that threatened the galaxy, Hobus does not have to be the sun of Romulus in order for Romulus to be threatened. Thus there is no indication that the writers "screwed up" on this point. "I doubt it" was not meant to be taken as an indication that I saw a problem; it was intended to mean that I did not.

-Brett- wrote:
If "hobus" is not Romulus's own primary, there should have been months at least from the time the star goes nova to the time Romulus is in any danger.
The fictional long-range supernova invented by the writers follows its own rules, just like fictional red matter black hole time travel does.
set, I apologize. I misunderstood your intentions. thanks for clearing that up.
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Old October 18 2013, 03:58 AM   #30
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Re: ROMULUS IN MIND MELD '09

Chrysalis wrote: View Post
Captain_Amasov wrote: View Post
After all these years I thought we just made up our own reasons why "such and such" happens in Trek. Is there any reason why the Hobus star couldn't have produced an unusual looking subspace shockwave, like Praxis did?
Except that in the comic and flashback, the star just keeps on going nova, getting magically bigger that it will actually consume the galaxy in massive perfectly spherical fireball.
So maybe we're looking at some sort of fiery looking FTL version of the "level 12" shockwave generated by the trilithium explosive in "Generations" then? To the outside eye it'd look like the star is just getting bigger and bigger.

Oddly enough, we know of at least one other event that caused subspace shockwaves from stars going supernova; in season three of "Voyager", a number of subspace shock waves were generated as byproducts of the supernovae caused by the Q Continuum during their civil war.

Last edited by Captain_Amasov; October 18 2013 at 04:09 AM.
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