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Old October 13 2013, 07:17 PM   #106
Bad Thoughts
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Jane O'Lantern wrote: View Post
Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
AFAIK the US is the only country on Earth with a separate government district.
Uh . . . no.
Thanks for the clarification, I should have checked before posting. Still, it's slightly over 10 percent of the world's sovereign nations, so most countries manage well enough without a separate government district.

That said, the land occupied by the UN headquarters building and the building spaces is administered by the UN, not a part of US territory, even though the UN has agreed to follow US legislation in exchange for access to utilities and emergency services.
This list is itself misleading. Many more capitals are either their own state or independent cities: Paris is its own département, Berlin its own Land, Madrid is an autonomous city. Others are part of small counties and districts that incorporate several suburbs with the capital in order to integrate the working area of the capital.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:53 PM   #107
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Jane O'Lantern wrote: View Post
Hollywood Werewolf wrote: View Post

Uh . . . no.
Thanks for the clarification, I should have checked before posting. Still, it's slightly over 10 percent of the world's sovereign nations, so most countries manage well enough without a separate government district.

That said, the land occupied by the UN headquarters building and the building spaces is administered by the UN, not a part of US territory, even though the UN has agreed to follow US legislation in exchange for access to utilities and emergency services.
This list is itself misleading. Many more capitals are either their own state or independent cities: Paris is its own département, Berlin its own Land, Madrid is an autonomous city. Others are part of small counties and districts that incorporate several suburbs with the capital in order to integrate the working area of the capital.
And shockingly enough, this does not subvert democracy in those countries! CRAZY, I tell you!

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Old October 13 2013, 07:58 PM   #108
Bad Thoughts
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Sci wrote: View Post
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Jane O'Lantern wrote: View Post

Thanks for the clarification, I should have checked before posting. Still, it's slightly over 10 percent of the world's sovereign nations, so most countries manage well enough without a separate government district.

That said, the land occupied by the UN headquarters building and the building spaces is administered by the UN, not a part of US territory, even though the UN has agreed to follow US legislation in exchange for access to utilities and emergency services.
This list is itself misleading. Many more capitals are either their own state or independent cities: Paris is its own département, Berlin its own Land, Madrid is an autonomous city. Others are part of small counties and districts that incorporate several suburbs with the capital in order to integrate the working area of the capital.
And shockingly enough, this does not subvert democracy in those countries! CRAZY, I tell you!

Actually, the reason Berlin was made its own Land was because of its control over the Prussian state, which dominated the entirely of Germany. Separating Berlin from Prussia and disaggregating Prussia were steps on the way to dismantling the bureaucracy that carried through to WWII and helped to establish democracy in the Post War era.

ETA: The creation of the Paris departement was part of the overall process of breaking apart the provinces of Ancien Régime France.
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Old October 13 2013, 08:49 PM   #109
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Sci wrote: View Post
You're moving the goalposts.
The goalposts invented by you? I'm not moving them Sci, I'm just not observing them.

Washington should not become a state, because (as I pointed out) it's just a medium sized city.

... the people of the District of Columbia and of its democratically-elected government, both of whom have made it clear on numerous occasions that they want statehood ...
Which was a shear act of arrogance on their parts.

"We've all decided that our (
medium sized) city is so important in our own minds that it should be it's own state. We all agree among ourselves."

Why does one district get to be a state but not another when it has fewer people?
Gee, because Wyoming isn't the size of a medium sized city?

... as I said before, really the entire Washington Metropolitan Area should be allowed to secede from Maryland and Virginia and form a state.
Why stop there Sci, why don't you take the extra step and form your own country? You know, because you're all so important?

A whole lot of Americans really wouldn't mind seeing you go, trust me.

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Old October 13 2013, 09:04 PM   #110
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Washington should not become a state, because (as I pointed out) it's just a medium sized city.
Statehood is the only real option left. Retrocession is not feasible, since no existing states want DC to be a part of it. And DC's current status is unacceptable as well, because DC residents have no representation. Something must change. If there is no other option but statehood, then that must logically be the way to go.

And to be honest, who the hell cares how big DC is? So it will become a really small state. Big deal! At least its people will have rights and representation. That's all that matters in the end.
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Old October 13 2013, 09:26 PM   #111
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
And to be honest, who the hell cares how big DC is? So it will become a really small state. Big deal! At least its people will have rights and representation. That's all that matters in the end.
T'Girl does not want people to have rights or representation in Congress. It's that simple.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:08 PM   #112
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
... the people of the District of Columbia and of its democratically-elected government, both of whom have made it clear on numerous occasions that they want statehood ...
Which was a shear act of arrogance on their parts.

"We've all decided that our (
medium sized) city is so important in our own minds that it should be it's own state. We all agree among ourselves."
The process of any territory becoming a state always begins with the people of said territory deciding that they want to be a state and saying so. There's nothing even remotely arrogant about it.
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Old October 16 2013, 01:18 AM   #113
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Paris is its own département
Aren't French départements more the equivalent of American counties? With the French regions being more the equal of American states?

*********

If
Earth's hundreds of nations did remain sovereign in the 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries, what would United Earth's duties, responsibilities, and restrictions be?

The sovereign national governments of Earth would each send a representative to the United Earth body. The Prime Minister or President (or whatever) of a nation might themselves select a subordinate directly, or simply leave the selection to their Secretary of State, or legislature. The representative to the United Earth world government from the United States might be titled the "Undersecretary for United Earth Affairs," or something like that.

United Earth's duties as a non-ruling world government /international entity, subsequent to the formation of the Federation, would be to decide upon and sending a representative (or representatives plural) to the Federation Council.

United Earth would also send a ambassador to the Federation, apparently there is both a representative and a ambassador. The UE would also receive the Federation's ambassador to Earth.

Prior to the formation of the Federation, the United Earth governing body would facilitate activities between Earth governments and interstellar species. Not just the Vulcans, but others (like the Denobulan).

Subsequent to the Federation, the UE would receive and send ambassadors directly with other Federation Members (we've saw this in TAS). And direct diplomatic relationships with political entities outside the Federation (we saw this is DS9).

In addition to diplomatic relations, there would be trade and cultural exchanges. UE managing Earth's collective interstellar affairs

Domestically, United Earth, as a limited international governing body, could be of use in diplomatic matters between sovereign nations here, the (limited) world governance would orchestrate and facilitate trade matters, disaster relief, and other activities.

Not only trade activities on Earth but also with incoming and outgoing interplanetary and interstellar trade as well. The UE could provide co-ordination and customs services.
Manage Earth's other off world activities, things like colonization, and ongoing relationships with former colonies. Not just interstellar, but also colonies within our own solar system.

The UE could assume the activities of the World Bank.

The UE would provide a Interpol (International Criminal Police Organization) like organization on Earth and on the colonies..

Off-world there will be a need for something like the US Marshall's Service..

There will also be a need for something like the US Coast Guard in space. Inside the solar system, on pathways between Earth and trading partners, and between colony worlds. After the establishment of the Federation it's possible that Starfleet could do this, but it might make more sense for it to be locally managed.

Prior to the Federation, United Earth would oversee the early Starfleet, this would be the NX-01 and Archer, and the rest of the fleet. After the Federation is formed, If Earth maintains a "Home Fleet" defense force, it would be managed through the UE governing body.

After these relatively few things, the United Earth governing body would have no powers what-so-ever. It would not have the ability to "actually govern" the entire Earth, it would be a governing body with a limited mandate that prevent growth.

The ability of the Earth's hundreds of sovereign nations to control the purse strings of the UE governing body will be one of the ways to ensure that it remains within it's internationally agreed upon boundaries.

Individual nations would (of course) be able to conduct interstellar activities independently of the UE if they wished, trade and colonies, and diplomacy. But it would make economic sense to do so through the UE.

If the various home worlds of the Federation had as many separate nations as we current do today, a future sovereign nation on Earth might need as many as 30,000 embassies to cover them all. An expensive possibility, best covered collectively through the UE.

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Last edited by T'Girl; October 16 2013 at 01:30 AM.
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Old October 16 2013, 03:28 AM   #114
Bad Thoughts
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Paris is its own département
Aren't French départements more the equivalent of American counties? With the French regions being more the equal of American states?
No. The départements are the primary administrative divisions of France, where the prefect, appointed by the national government, oversees the implementation of national policy. There are deliberative, non-legislative bodies, conseils généraux, for each département, which the prefects may consult, but are not required to do so. The régions consist of several départements acting in concert, but they are nowhere near having the authority, competency or capacity of American states. They are the result of Paris' langorous attempts at decentralization. They have the ability to act in some economic, social and cultural affairs, but they have limited political existences. They have deliberative bodies that can't make law. Even worse, some are almost non-existent. The success of any région depends on the ability to draw together its communities into its projects. Régions like Alsace and Rhône-Alpes have key cultural and economic resources that allow them to be very successful. However, there are some that almost do nothing.
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Old October 16 2013, 05:59 PM   #115
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
If Earth's hundreds of nations did remain sovereign in the 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries, what would United Earth's duties, responsibilities, and restrictions be?

The sovereign national governments of Earth would each send a representative to the United Earth body. The Prime Minister or President (or whatever) of a nation might themselves select a subordinate directly, or simply leave the selection to their Secretary of State, or legislature. The representative to the United Earth world government from the United States might be titled the "Undersecretary for United Earth Affairs," or something like that.

United Earth's duties as a non-ruling world government /international entity, subsequent to the formation of the Federation, would be to decide upon and sending a representative (or representatives plural) to the Federation Council.
So what you're saying is that both United Earth and the Federation would, in essence, not be answerable to the people -- that the people would not actually be able to vote for their own representatives in either U.E. or the UFP. Both would end up like the European Union or United Nations, with severe democratic deficits.

Sounds pretty awful to me. If I'm a 24th Century American, I want to be able to vote for my Member of the United Earth Parliament and my Federation Councillor, thank you very much.

Subsequent to the Federation, the UE would receive and send ambassadors directly with other Federation Members (we've saw this in TAS). And direct diplomatic relationships with political entities outside the Federation (we saw this is DS9).
We never saw United Earth "direct" diplomatic relations with political entities outside the Federation on DSN. In fact, DSN rather consistently depicted the Federation as being in control of foreign policy -- it was the Federation government that condemned the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, for instance, not the U.E. government.

Domestically, United Earth, as a limited international governing body, could be of use in diplomatic matters between sovereign nations here, the (limited) world governance would orchestrate and facilitate trade matters, disaster relief, and other activities.
On an Earth with national borders as necessarily porous as a society with transporter tech would create, I really don't see how a national polity could retain its sovereignty in any meaningful sense. The sheer amount of border-crossing and intercultural mixings would be guaranteed to eliminate the psychology of perceiving themselves as meaningfully separate from other nations.

There will also be a need for something like the US Coast Guard in space. Inside the solar system, on pathways between Earth and trading partners, and between colony worlds. After the establishment of the Federation it's possible that Starfleet could do this, but it might make more sense for it to be locally managed.
I think it makes sense to assume that most Federation Members have their own local space forces capable of providing local and in-system emergency response services, independent of the Federation Starfleet.

The ability of the Earth's hundreds of sovereign nations to control the purse strings of the UE governing body will be one of the ways to ensure that it remains within it's internationally agreed upon boundaries.
It is also a way to guarantee it would fail and go the way of the Articles of Confederation.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:08 PM   #116
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
No.
Thank you.


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Old October 16 2013, 06:48 PM   #117
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post

Why does one district get to be a state but not another when it has fewer people?
Gee, because Wyoming isn't the size of a medium sized city?

... as I said before, really the entire Washington Metropolitan Area should be allowed to secede from Maryland and Virginia and form a state.
Why stop there Sci, why don't you take the extra step and form your own country? You know, because you're all so important?

A whole lot of Americans really wouldn't mind seeing you go, trust me.

Make them have to keep the Representatives, Senators and executives though.
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Old October 16 2013, 07:41 PM   #118
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
... as I said before, really the entire Washington Metropolitan Area should be allowed to secede from Maryland and Virginia and form a state.
Why stop there Sci, why don't you take the extra step and form your own country? You know, because you're all so important?

A whole lot of Americans really wouldn't mind seeing you go, trust me.

Sci wrote: View Post

T'Girl does not want people to have rights or representation in Congress. It's that simple.
Both of you know better than to add the personal snipes in your commentary. It's fair game in TNZ, but not in here. Thanks.
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Old October 16 2013, 08:08 PM   #119
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post

Why does one district get to be a state but not another when it has fewer people?
Gee, because Wyoming isn't the size of a medium sized city?

... as I said before, really the entire Washington Metropolitan Area should be allowed to secede from Maryland and Virginia and form a state.
Why stop there Sci, why don't you take the extra step and form your own country? You know, because you're all so important?

A whole lot of Americans really wouldn't mind seeing you go, trust me.

Make them have to keep the Representatives, Senators and executives though.
And why should the Independent Republic of Washingtonia have to keep your Members of Congress? It's not like we got to elect them.
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Old October 16 2013, 08:10 PM   #120
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

It's not clear how much direct democracy is really needed in the 24th century. There are few references to elected officials, many more to those who are more likely appointed. I would not be surprised if GR had a cynical view of federalism and decentralization. Perhaps election would be limited to voting for representation to the Federation Council and Federation President. If that were the case, things like USA and UK might only exist if they are useful for administrative purposes, but might have no political existence. It's even possible that the 24th century economy would make devolved governance inconsequential.
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