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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 15 2013, 05:15 AM   #61
DonIago
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

The situations aren't analogous. The US has neither the resources nor the technology available within the UFP.

A more analogous situation might be if you moved into a house located near an airport, knowing full well that the airport might be able to buy you out at some point, and then they exercised that right.
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Old October 15 2013, 05:16 AM   #62
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ And if you had a hundred or so different locations all ready for you to move to.
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Old October 16 2013, 02:49 AM   #63
Nightdiamond
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Your location says you're from California.. would you feel the same if the US ceded California to Mexico as part of an agreement to stop drug cartel violence, and the Mexican Army began to oppress the people there? You'd just up and leave and not care because the rest of the US is prosperous? Even if it was your own family that was indiscriminately targeted?
That's a pretty good argument. It's not an easy answer.

But all that hinges on the colonists being pre warned not to colonize an empty planet near a hostile border and choosing to do it anyway.

And as DonIago and George Steinbrenner pointed out, whether the colonists and the Federation was so poor there was a desperate need to colonize and there was a big land grab going on.

20 something years ago, if the planets were uninhabited, and the border heavily disputed, and the colonists came to the planet, and they were warned not to by Starfleet, it doesn't make the colonists look too sane. Or make sense.

Especially when Trek made it a point to say how prosperous the Federation was. There was plenty for all. No persecution or anything.

Even more so when you see it's mainly earth humans involved--what excuse do they have? Bajorans would make sense, but humans needing to colonize?

Was all of this because of some 'adventurous spirit' some pampered, well fed colonists (excusing the Bajorans and others) had?
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Old October 16 2013, 10:04 AM   #64
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The federation hunted the Maquis down as animals after Cardassia helped its DMZ colonists break the treaty - but the federation didn't fail them? Really?

A federation using biological weapons against a federation colony (which threatened to kill men, women, children - citizens of the UFP -, and, in all probability, killed a number of them) because one maquis - Eddington - used a biological weapon, is not a federation that failed its maquis citizens? Ridiculous.
Also - nice to see the ethics of the federation are the ethics of war criminals.

The federation let the its DMZ citizens be massacred without doing a single thing - I guess that, as the federation saw it, it had only rights over them (to hunt them down and poison their colonies for breaking its laws) but no obligations (to protect them).
And this is the federation not failing the Maquis.
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Which part of "the colonists chose to live under the Cardassian government" wasn't clear to you?
Which part of - watch 'The Maquis' again - is not clear to you?
Among the many revelations you will have is that the colonists chose to live in the DMZ under federation government.
Also, if the Maquis were really under Cardassian government, then the federation had no right to hunt them down as criminals, etc.

As for the rest of your post, your attempts to blame the victims are transparent enough to be clear to everyone who caress to look at the depicted situation even half-way objectively.
DonIago wrote: View Post
(laughs) Okie-doke.
Okie-dokie what?

You're obviously wrong, but don't have the courage to own up to it, I see.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:24 PM   #65
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I don't have the "courage" to debate someone I've never met who uses a line like that on a bulletin board?

I suppose I'll just go stick my head in the oven in shame then.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:49 PM   #66
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't have the "courage" to debate someone I've never met who uses a line like that on a bulletin board?
Apparently so.
And yes, it is weird.
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Old October 16 2013, 07:09 PM   #67
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I think personally it can be broken thusly...

Was Sisko a Javert.

A man obsessed over another petty crime vis a via stolen bread.

In the end regarding said original question, the answer is simply and undeniably no.

Eddington didn't steal bread. He was welcomed into Sisko home, feed. Trusted and expected to honor his duties as given.

He stole from said Home .

That's strike one.

He took action against the Federation, his uniform by tricking and crippling a Ship pursuring him for said crime.

Was it self defense , pretty much. But that could have gone wrong on so many ways. A wrong wire and dead Federation officers.

That's strike two.

He used a bio terrorist weapon on a defenceless target. And then crippled a refugee ship escaping said attack.

That folks is strike three

Sisko was no Javert to a harmless innocent who did a minor crime. He was however more then happy to play one to catch a man who can poison a planet and still clam moral authority.

If he brought a hammer to discipline a naughty child then he was a Javert. If he used the same tactics as his Eddington and played the villain then he was what happens when you decide to go around Bio nuking worlds.

If ya don't want to get mauled then don't poke the bear.

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Old October 16 2013, 07:12 PM   #68
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Tuvok wrote: View Post

If he brought a hammer to discipline a naughty child then he was a Javert. If he used the same tactics as his Eddington and played the villain then he was what happens when you decide to go around Bio nuking worlds.
Sisko should've been sharing a cell with Eddington over that.
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Old October 16 2013, 08:51 PM   #69
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't have the "courage" to debate someone I've never met who uses a line like that on a bulletin board?
Apparently so.
And yes, it is weird.
Your willingness to engage in personal attacks betrays your lack of interest in an honest and open discussion of the matter.
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Old October 16 2013, 09:03 PM   #70
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

DonIago wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't have the "courage" to debate someone I've never met who uses a line like that on a bulletin board?
Apparently so.
And yes, it is weird.
Your willingness to engage in personal attacks betrays your lack of interest in an honest and open discussion of the matter.
You're both talking about one another and not the subject by now. Let's switch gears back to Sisko and Eddington. More civil.
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Old October 16 2013, 09:45 PM   #71
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^Agreed.
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Old October 17 2013, 12:15 PM   #72
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Tuvok wrote: View Post

If he brought a hammer to discipline a naughty child then he was a Javert. If he used the same tactics as his Eddington and played the villain then he was what happens when you decide to go around Bio nuking worlds.
Sisko should've been sharing a cell with Eddington over that.
Good point...but I can easily see why this was ignored by the higher ups.

******************8

Starfleet Intelligence officer- Oh look , apparently Sisko used a bio mass weopen on a Marquis settlement.

Starfleet Admiral - The Marquis, the Federation colonist?

Starfleet Intelligence officer - Ah no, sir . Apparently the Marquis are a resistance movement made of former Federation colonist.

Starfleet Admiral - So not Federation?

Starfleet Intelligence officer- No sir, in fact they stole Federation supplies, attacked and crippled a Federation ship and nearly caused a war.

Starfleet Admiral- Still, just going in without warning and bio nuking a planet..

Starfleet Intelligence officer - Actually Siskio warned them first, which is funny cause the day previously the Marquis poisoned a Cardarssian colony and shot at and crippled refugees escaping said attack. In that attack there was no warning.

Starfleet Admiral - Hmmmm, stole our resources. Attacked our ships. And bought to heel by our last ,best defence against the Dominion.

Starfleet Intelligence Officer - Yeah, its a bit grey

Sloan ( Section31 )- Not really , I wouldn't have bothered with a warning.

***********************

I know that Big Gene kind of handed the Federation the kick me sign by declaring that it's a Utopia filled with flawless persons with enlightenment and moral superiority shining out the ass. But in Ds9 , Starfleet was shown to be a bit more realist in terms of actions needed and taken.
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Old October 18 2013, 12:20 AM   #73
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

DonIago wrote: View Post
The situations aren't analogous. The US has neither the resources nor the technology available within the UFP.

A more analogous situation might be if you moved into a house located near an airport, knowing full well that the airport might be able to buy you out at some point, and then they exercised that right.
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ And if you had a hundred or so different locations all ready for you to move to.
Assuming there were a hundred or so different locations all ready for them to move to and ample ships to do it with, we don't know how big the colony populations were or how many M-class planets the federation had available to just move people to (since they terraforms planets its probably not an infinite supply).
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Old October 18 2013, 10:38 AM   #74
grendelsbayne
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
The situations aren't analogous. The US has neither the resources nor the technology available within the UFP.

A more analogous situation might be if you moved into a house located near an airport, knowing full well that the airport might be able to buy you out at some point, and then they exercised that right.
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ And if you had a hundred or so different locations all ready for you to move to.
Assuming there were a hundred or so different locations all ready for them to move to and ample ships to do it with, we don't know how big the colony populations were or how many M-class planets the federation had available to just move people to (since they terraforms planets its probably not an infinite supply).
On the other hand - we have seen dozens of inhabited worlds, none of which appeared to be ridiculously overpopulated. There's no reason the colonists absolute must have gone to an unpopulated world, rather than an already established one.
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Old October 18 2013, 04:04 PM   #75
DonIago
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I think the argument that the colonists couldn't be moved fails as it's never raised in any episodes. There's never a "Oh crap, we need to move the colonists but have no place to put them!" moment.
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