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Old October 15 2013, 01:36 PM   #166
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

However, there was a new character. He was Vulcan and was Spock's cousin. He rejected his Vulcan heritage and purposely showed his emotions. He went by the human name of "Steven" and he had blonde hair, which is extremely rare for Vulcans (as are blue eyes which we see with Stonn). Does anybody know if this blonde Vulcan that I saw was the same character as Steven?
I can't speak as to the character in the fan film, but Stephen is from the novel Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda McIntyre. I've always wondered what it would be like if Stephen met Sybok (and with a family like that, no wonder Spock was so messed up, and his father so pushy for a Vulcan son!)
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Old October 15 2013, 03:36 PM   #167
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Soren never mentions anything about that. Her government/courts/society exercise considerable control over the populace, to the point of controling how they're supposed to think and feel.

So no romantic love would be a possibility, something else that is officially "disgusting."

Really hard to say if they do have that.

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Old October 15 2013, 04:50 PM   #168
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
However, there was a new character. He was Vulcan and was Spock's cousin. He rejected his Vulcan heritage and purposely showed his emotions. He went by the human name of "Steven" and he had blonde hair, which is extremely rare for Vulcans (as are blue eyes which we see with Stonn). Does anybody know if this blonde Vulcan that I saw was the same character as Steven?
I can't speak as to the character in the fan film, but Stephen is from the novel Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda McIntyre. I've always wondered what it would be like if Stephen met Sybok (and with a family like that, no wonder Spock was so messed up, and his father so pushy for a Vulcan son!)
I stopped reading ST novels in the mid-80s, so don't know if McIntyre's book came first or not, but in TNG: Face of the Enemy, there's a blond Human male who had defected to Romulus named Stefan DeSeve. He wore a haircut in traditional Romulan style (which sort of looked like the same wig Denise Crosby once wore as Sela). Perhaps one inspired the other.
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Old October 15 2013, 06:32 PM   #169
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Then I probably saw Stefan then. I was unaware of that character mistook him for the Vulcan character of Steven.
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Old October 16 2013, 04:09 AM   #170
Tiberius
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Star Trek Phase II is a fan series.

There was going to be a "real" Star Trek Phase II series, but that got turned into Star Trek, the Motion Picture. There has never been a canon Star Trek Phase II.
I'm certainly not claiming the work done on the 1970s Phase II series is canonical. Nonetheless, it is more authoritative than novels. There was a chance that those stories would have been produced. Instead of a film in which Ilia was turned into a piece of bio-machinery, we would have been exposed to numerous episodes in which Ilia's sexuality was a constantly source of personal conflict. On the one hand, the Phase II development ideas, scripts et al, are the only indications about how themes related to Deltans would have developed: they have never been overwritten by future stories in any series. On the other, the scripts and other development material was never given a full vetting, meaning that those materials can only suggest where the production team intended to go with Ilia. It's not perfect, but given we have nothing else to go on with Deltans ...
Unmade episodes are not canon. They can be used as a guide to see how the producers were thinking that the show could go, but very often such early ideas get ignored. For example, the Voyager Bible says that B'elanna and Tuvok have a close relationship because he is one of the few people who can calm her aggressive Klingon temperament. If Voyager had been cancelled after a few episodes, we'd be saying that this was how it was, but the way the series went is very different.
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Old October 16 2013, 05:57 AM   #171
SpaceLover65
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Tiberius wrote: View Post
There was a writer's strike back in the early TNG days, and they had to hurriedly rewrite one of the Phase II scripts to become a TNG episode. That episode is "The Child". Originally, it was going to be Ilia having the baby, and Decker was going to play the part Riker ended up with.
You are absolutely right. I've NOW seen both episodes. The Next Generation episode of "The Child" was one of my favorites. I had no idea that is was taken from another series (Phase II). However, I really liked the one in Next Generation than the one in Phase II. The Phase II script just seemed kinda weak to me.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:07 AM   #172
SpaceLover65
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

King Daniel Into Darkness: I can't speak as to the character in the fan film, but Stephen is from the novel Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda McIntyre. I've always wondered what it would be like if Stephen met Sybok (and with a family like that, no wonder Spock was so messed up, and his father so pushy for a Vulcan son!)
YES!! That is the book I read. Boy...but that was a long time ago. I recall that Spock was VERY ashamed of his cousin, Stephen for showing emotion. As I remember, Stephen was jealous of Spock...because Spock actually could feel human emotions (since he's half human-but suppressed said human emotions) - and Stephen was actually faking many of his human-like emotions. I KNOW that Vulcans possess emotions...but this particular book kind of played it that Vulcans didn't possess very strong emotions or were limited emotion-wise. At least not emotions exactly like a humans.
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Old October 16 2013, 07:35 AM   #173
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Tiberius wrote: View Post
For example, the Voyager Bible says that B'elanna and Tuvok have a close relationship because he is one of the few people who can calm her aggressive Klingon temperament. If Voyager had been cancelled after a few episodes, we'd be saying that this was how it was, but the way the series went is very different.
Yeah, that reminds me about the bit from The Next Generation that stated that originally Geordi "worked closely with the children on the ship"...
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Old October 16 2013, 12:19 PM   #174
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Unmade episodes are not canon. They can be used as a guide to see how the producers were thinking that the show could go, but very often such early ideas get ignored. For example, the Voyager Bible says that B'elanna and Tuvok have a close relationship because he is one of the few people who can calm her aggressive Klingon temperament. If Voyager had been cancelled after a few episodes, we'd be saying that this was how it was, but the way the series went is very different.
I don't think we disagree. It's background information, to be replaced as the stories evolved organically. However, we know an awful lot about how Trek deals with hyper-sexualized individuals as well as they way that sexual themes worked their way into stories for Troi and Betazeds, the narrative successors of Ilia and Deltans. It takes little imagination to see how problematic it would be if Ilia's mother, full of super-pheromomes, stalked Kirk around the ship, like Lwaxana did to Picard.
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Old October 16 2013, 10:51 PM   #175
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

I can see how some of the Phase II characters were transferred to Next Generation characters. And I see how in "The Child" that some of the things that happened to the Deltan characters also happened to the Betazed characters. However, I don't see too many common traits between the two species. I know the Betezeds possessed telepathy, but I don't think the Deltans did. I know (at least) that the Deltan females had some sort of pheromones that they used to control their males, which the Betazeds did not. I know the Betazeds had some strange customs...like getting married nude. However, I never really saw them as highly sexualized as I see the Deltans. Lwoxana did seem highly sexualized...but I think that was just her personality. I never perceived that from Deanna...or any of the other visiting Betazed race. They were probably more open to sexuality than humans are...but I think their race was based on telepathy...they communicated through telepathy like it was their own private language. But I don't believe that they were as highly sexualized as the Deltons.

Last edited by SpaceLover65; October 17 2013 at 01:40 AM.
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Old October 17 2013, 02:57 AM   #176
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
[It takes little imagination to see how problematic it would be if Ilia's mother, full of super-pheromomes, stalked Kirk around the ship, like Lwaxana did to Picard.
LOL! I can almost picture that scene. Of course, Kirk wouldn't have stood a chance against those super-pheromones. Nor do I think that he'd really try...if he thought nobody was looking...Kirk would have went for it.

However, the question on this thread is: Say if Ilia...or another Delton female tried to seduce a gay male, such as Peter Kirk. Would Peter have gone for it? We just don't know. Sexuality is too complex...and I've heard of actual gay guys having sex with women and enjoying it. And there weren't those Deltan pheromones to enforce it. Different people have different reactions. I believe that a Deltan could alter someone like Peter Kirk's mood...but I don't know for sure that she could seduce him. Maybe...but then again...maybe not.
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Old October 17 2013, 03:09 AM   #177
SpaceLover65
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

I hate sinking to such depths...but an example of what I was talking about above ^ caused a controversy with the adult bisexual film, Shifting Gears. In the movie a well known gay actor has straight sex with several women...you would have assumed he was straight. However, the movie was his first time with women...and he said that he enjoyed it...and looked forward to having sex with women again. For some reason this truly angered the gay community.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ftinggears.jpg

Last edited by Misfit Toy; October 18 2013 at 02:23 AM. Reason: Hotlinked image
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Old October 17 2013, 08:03 AM   #178
Tiberius
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

I think there's a difference between a gay guy enjoying sex with a woman and a gay guy being sexually attracted to women.

I mean, I'm straight and I could very well enjoy having sex with a guy, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to start perving on men.
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Old October 17 2013, 10:04 AM   #179
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
...this truly angered the gay community.
"Community"? How many people really complained? Sorry, but I'm part of the "gay community" and most of us don't care about stupid (and obvious) "gay/bi/straight for pay" ploys like that designed to sell videos.
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Old October 17 2013, 11:52 AM   #180
Tiberius
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Maurice wrote: View Post
SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
...this truly angered the gay community.
"Community"? How many people really complained? Sorry, but I'm part of the "gay community" and most of us don't care about stupid (and obvious) "gay/bi/straight for pay" ploys like that designed to sell videos.
I think what's more anger-inducing is thinking everyone can fit into one of three categories, or that he was just doing it for pay.
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