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View Poll Results: vote
I prefer the Wrath of Khan 110 72.85%
I Prefer Into Darkness 17 11.26%
I like them both the same 24 15.89%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 15 2013, 04:51 PM   #31
BigSnake
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So, "Those people were wrong but these people saying the exact same things now are right!"
Actually what I'm telling you is the complaints aren't really of the same nature at all -- I've seen that old fanzine, there's actually a reason complaints like that didn't escalate to the point of the film being denounced and rejected at fan conventions, it's because they are qualitatively different -- and that you're kidding yourself to think otherwise. But you are of course welcome to disagree.
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Old October 15 2013, 05:01 PM   #32
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

I seem to recall reading of TMP being denounced at conventions - by the actors themselves! If DeForrest Kelley's "This is Star Trek I" [RE: Wrath of Khan] had happened in this era, sites like Trekweb would be glorifying it ("Kelley rejects TMP!") just the same as they did that 100-fan poll at the 15,000+ attended Las Vegas convention which voted Into Darkness the worst Trek movie.

IMO the fandom hasn't changed at all, merely the form of communication.
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Old October 15 2013, 05:47 PM   #33
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

There's truth to the notion that fandom hasn't changed. There will always be criticisms thrown at any new Trek film, both good (TWOK) and bad (NEMESIS). Old letters criticizing TWOK for "destroying the franchise" doesn't automatically mean that STID must be good since it gets the same noise. Every Trek movie seems to get that from a vocal group for various reasons. I don't pay attention to that hyperbole because Trek has been around for nearly 50 years and is likely not going away. I don't like the current state Trek is in, but I'm still optimistic for the future because I know that Orci/Kurtzman are not going to last forever.
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Old October 15 2013, 06:00 PM   #34
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

The ONLY thing that is better about STID are the visual effects, Wrath of Khan is better in every other way IMO!
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Old October 15 2013, 06:10 PM   #35
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

anh165 wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
TWOK is intelligent storytelling and gripping, powerful drama. STID is thick as pigshit.
Why dont you actually watch STiD before you call it pigshit?.
Sounds like they did.






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Old October 15 2013, 06:29 PM   #36
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

STID is a great movie which I enjoyed the hell out of.

TWOK is TWOK. You don't throw a kitten into the ring with a tiger.
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Old October 15 2013, 06:51 PM   #37
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

My preference is for The Wrath of Khan, but I enjoy both.
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Old October 15 2013, 07:25 PM   #38
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

BigJake wrote: View Post
TWOK had its imperfections, mostly small (why is searching for a "lifeless planet" so hard? why does Reliant not have star charts of the Ceti Alpha system that would have told them something had happened? why do they not remember it's where Khan was stranded? etc.) -- but was mostly excellent despite them, with good character arcs, memorable performances, convincingly-sold action that doesn't try to pummel the audience into numbness, and a truly moving death scene for Spock. A moment whose power was mostly leached by the studio's subsequent greed, true, but still in itself a genuinely moving moment even if you hadn't watched the old series. It is really the only Trek film of either the original or TNG franchises that has won, and deserves, real recognition outside of the Trek fanbase.
I love The Wrath of Khan but it has many flaws including "why didn't Kirk raise his shields per regulations?", "why didn't Khan beam Kirk up and snap his neck when he snagged the Genesis device?" and "why didn't one of the engineers who already had access to radiation gear go in and fix main power?" And I could care less about the flaws because when I watch it, I have a good time.

I think that if Star Trek Into Darkness pummeled you into numbness you were watching it wrong or may need to see a doctor because you may have had a stroke. At 42, I had no issues keeping up with the movie and found it a fun thrill ride.
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Old October 15 2013, 11:14 PM   #39
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

for a film that relies on its television series to add some depth, this film immediately shoots itself in the leg. the most obvious issue is the fact that khan remembers Chekov, but never met the guy in space seed. HELLLO, really? how lazy of writing is that? and yet orci and Kurtz get torn to pieces.
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Old October 15 2013, 11:28 PM   #40
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
for a film that relies on its television series to add some depth, this film immediately shoots itself in the leg. the most obvious issue is the fact that khan remembers Chekov, but never met the guy in space seed. HELLLO, really? how lazy of writing is that? and yet orci and Kurtz get torn to pieces.
It's pretty easily explainable. As are many of the flaws in The Wrath of Khan. People give TWOK a pass because they like it and skewer ID because they don't like it. But both movies have major flaws.

Whether people want to believe it or not.
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Old October 16 2013, 12:45 AM   #41
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

BillJ wrote: View Post
ChowdaHead wrote: View Post
for a film that relies on its television series to add some depth, this film immediately shoots itself in the leg. the most obvious issue is the fact that khan remembers Chekov, but never met the guy in space seed. HELLLO, really? how lazy of writing is that? and yet orci and Kurtz get torn to pieces.
It's pretty easily explainable. As are many of the flaws in The Wrath of Khan. People give TWOK a pass because they like it and skewer ID because they don't like it. But both movies have major flaws.

Whether people want to believe it or not.
but, I would argue the flaws in wok outweigh the flaws in WOK. wok just almost insults the intelligence of its viewers, whereas ID is a more fluid film. whether fanboys what to admit it or not. the retreading is besides the point.
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Old October 16 2013, 12:47 AM   #42
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

ChowdaHead, you're trying too hard.

(EDIT: I mean, I know you feel like Orci and whathisface are getting a bad rap? But I don't care how much bluster you put into it, there are objectively different problems of plot logic going on in "where was Chekov in Space Seed" and "why is Kirk suddenly a Captain at the end of ST09;" or of "why didn't Khan beam Kirk up with Genesis" and "why does Starfleet need ships when you can teleport from star to star." There's no way to make them into similar problems in the slightest, no matter what BillJ tells you.)
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Last edited by BigSnake; October 16 2013 at 12:58 AM.
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Old October 16 2013, 04:21 AM   #43
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Kirk the Jerk wrote: View Post
The ONLY thing that is better about STID are the visual effects, Wrath of Khan is better in every other way IMO!
This....and in 10-15 years when SFX has moved on to something entirely different people will look back and realise just how hollow STID really is. TWOK endures because it's SFX serves to compliment the story only. It was never there to be a tentpole draw for the audience in the same way that STID's is. Of course, with the death of orginality in mainstream Hollywood and the legions of morons who pay to see Michael Bay style "epics", its not surprise that this happened.
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Old October 16 2013, 05:08 AM   #44
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Each to his own: each according to his gifts.

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Old October 16 2013, 05:39 AM   #45
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Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Putting a "which one is better" poll in a forum dedicated to older Star Trek films is like going to a baseball game in AT&T Park in San Francisco and asking the crowd if the Giants or the Dodgers are best.
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