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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old October 15 2013, 02:12 AM   #16
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ Again, irrelevant. Evil is evil; reasons don't matter.
Of course, do you realize that refusing to see the world in anything but an utterly uncompromising view of black-vs-white, us-vs-them, makes you evil, right?
No, I don't think so.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But a decent tyrant is still decent. If you had a choice between a Hitler who was not going to exterminate the Jews, and the Hitler we got, wouldn't you opt for the moderate one?
The very concept of a 'decent tyrant' is a contradiction.
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Old October 15 2013, 10:43 AM   #17
iguana_tonante
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ Again, irrelevant. Evil is evil; reasons don't matter.
Of course, do you realize that refusing to see the world in anything but an utterly uncompromising view of black-vs-white, us-vs-them, makes you evil, right?
No, I don't think so.
Well, that's kinda the point I was making, right? Evil people never think they are.
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Old October 15 2013, 11:31 AM   #18
Jarvisimo
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But a decent tyrant is still decent. If you had a choice between a Hitler who was not going to exterminate the Jews, and the Hitler we got, wouldn't you opt for the moderate one?
The very concept of a 'decent tyrant' is a contradiction.
Name me a leader from history before the rise of democracy. They are all 'tyrants' to one extent or another, a leader who controlled their power base through the sometimes ruthless destruction of opponents: lauded national heroes like Elizabeth I of England, Louis XIV of France, Qin Shi Huang who united China, Salahadin who fought the crusaders, Richard Lionheart who retook Jerusalem, Louis IX of France and its most celebrated ruler, William the Conqueror of England, Henry V of England, etc.... Each did things morally objectionable, but equally each were 'decent tyrants', who brought prosperity, success or purpose to nations and empires in distress.
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Old October 15 2013, 11:52 AM   #19
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Can we discuss the rest of the comic now?
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Old October 16 2013, 01:20 AM   #20
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Of course, do you realize that refusing to see the world in anything but an utterly uncompromising view of black-vs-white, us-vs-them, makes you evil, right?
No, I don't think so.
Well, that's kinda the point I was making, right? Evil people never think they are.
Well, the moment I start massacring innocent people because they're not genetically perfect, then you can call me evil.

That being said: I hope at least that we're all in agreement that Khan's actions, while some of them may be explainable (i.e. doing what he did to save his crew), that doesn't make them justified. Explanation is not justification.

Right?
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Old October 16 2013, 01:26 AM   #21
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
No, I don't think so.
Well, that's kinda the point I was making, right? Evil people never think they are.
Well, the moment I start massacring innocent people because they're not genetically perfect, then you can call me evil.

That being said: I hope at least that we're all in agreement that Khan's actions, while some of them may be explainable (i.e. doing what he did to save his crew), that doesn't make them justified. Explanation is not justification.

Right?
Of course. I never intended it differently.

(On the other hand, I saw you butchering the rules of fashion with unthinking abandon. That's evil enough for me! )
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Old October 16 2013, 02:40 AM   #22
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Like I said, I was never talking about whether I approved of Khan's actions. I was just concerned about whether he'd be an interestingly written character.
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Old October 16 2013, 03:53 AM   #23
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

I see the preview just released alludes to a change in appearance from Montalban to Cumberbatch. Well at least they are trying to grovel back to the fans some way. It was never fair to expect an actor like Cumberbatch to try and have to reflect such an iconic character portrayed by such a different type of actor. At least they are trying to offer some sort of half arsed explanation for the casting choice.
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Old October 16 2013, 04:23 AM   #24
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Smoked Salmon wrote: View Post
It was never fair to expect an actor like Cumberbatch to try and have to reflect such an iconic character portrayed by such a different type of actor.
You mean like Sherlock Holmes?

If a role is iconic, then it's very likely to end up being played by multiple different actors, often of very different types. Heck, different actors have been playing the same role since the dawn of theater. How many thousands of Antigones or Hamlets or Cyranos have there been? And how is it unfair to an actor to expect them to act?
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Old October 16 2013, 05:55 AM   #25
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Smoked Salmon wrote: View Post
I see the preview just released alludes to a change in appearance from Montalban to Cumberbatch. Well at least they are trying to grovel back to the fans some way. It was never fair to expect an actor like Cumberbatch to try and have to reflect such an iconic character portrayed by such a different type of actor. At least they are trying to offer some sort of half arsed explanation for the casting choice.
I don't know if I'd call it alluding.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:04 AM   #26
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Another Khan-centric series, what next, the final mission of the NCC-1701 before refit or another what really happened to the Defiant. Or how about another take on the Mirror Universe that is completely different from everything else that was established.

There are so many other good stories that need to be told, finished,and or elaborated on.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:14 AM   #27
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

This is only the second Khan back story we've gotten.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:28 AM   #28
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Yes, but we got a number of Khan books, and other Khan-centric stories is what i am getting at.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:35 AM   #29
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Smoked Salmon wrote: View Post
It was never fair to expect an actor like Cumberbatch to try and have to reflect such an iconic character portrayed by such a different type of actor.
You mean like Sherlock Holmes?

If a role is iconic, then it's very likely to end up being played by multiple different actors, often of very different types. Heck, different actors have been playing the same role since the dawn of theater. How many thousands of Antigones or Hamlets or Cyranos have there been? And how is it unfair to an actor to expect them to act?
Sherlock Holmes was a literary character open to interpretation and adaption. Khan was as much a visual and performance based characterisation as he was written one.

TWOK has not been surpassed by STIF in terms of acclaim and the fact is that Cumberbatch was very much having to step into a role where he would automatically be compared to an iconic performance. That is different to an interpretation of Holmes. He was always destined to have a hard time breaking away from that and the attempts to do so have reduced him Khan to something of a largely unfamiliar bad guy who just happens to share the name. I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that had he remained John Harrison it would've made little difference to STID. Therefore I think having him carry the burden of the Khan name was a disservice to Benedict. He should've been able to create his own bad guy from scratch (in terms of performance).
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Old October 16 2013, 06:40 AM   #30
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Re: Khan - New IDW mini series - SPOILERS!!!!!

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
Yes, but we got a number of Khan books, and other Khan-centric stories is what i am getting at.
Surely IDW have a right to pursue tie-ins to the current movie, the biggest money-earning Trek movie to date?

"Countdown", "Nero" and "Spock Reflections" all sold well, AFAIK. Possibly better than the "Ongoing" series. Many of us have been anticipating that there'd be a "Countdown to Darkness" and a "Khan" backstory mini-series. And so there should be.

IDW's previous "Khan" comic was a retelling of ST II, filling a comic adaptation gap that has been there since the 80s.

Smoked Salmon wrote: View Post
I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that had he remained John Harrison it would've made little difference to STID.
This board would have been filled with angry comments such as, "Orci & Kurtzman are gutless. How much cooler would this film had been if they'd allowed Cumberbatch to tackle... Khan?"

You know it would have happened!
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