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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old October 13 2013, 06:19 PM   #46
BillJ
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

BigJake wrote: View Post

Because it's indeed the impression the episode gives, and it's never really been the greatest fit with the Vulcan mythos before or since. The Vulcans are supposed to have the potential to be violent savages if they don't restrain their emotions; being actual practicing violent savages who just kind of bullshit about being "logical" without employing rationality where it would really count is not at all the same thing. Do we ever hear about this particular ritual ever again in any form of canon Trek?
Voyager: "Blood Fever"

It isn't a matter of society but of biological urge:

Amok Time wrote:
MCCOY: They still go mad at this time. Perhaps it's the price they pay for having no emotions the rest of the time.
The reason "challenge or death" still exists is because they have no other outlet for their aggression. Either you win the mate and get your groove on, lose and die which you no longer need to get your groove on or win and the aggression you get out kills the urge.

I think the episode and the rituals make perfect sense in a society where emotion is suppressed 99% of the time. Sex or violence in the absence of sex are the only acceptable outlets in their society. So they see the ancient rituals as still being "logical".
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Old October 13 2013, 06:40 PM   #47
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Their biology strips them of their logic at this time...therefore they don't deal with it "logically". It's an artifact of what's under the Vulcans' surface. They aren't just humans who have chosen to suppress their emotions...they are aliens. In their culture, things like the ritual likely have a more or less religious significance to them.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:11 PM   #48
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

McCoy's trick might have resulted in some gradual changes to the ritual though. When Spock thought he had killed Kirk, that was enough to snap him out of it, without the final blow being lethal. Perhaps Nerfed ahn-woons and lirpas were later used, or the opponents were given some sort of delayed action knock-out drops.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:15 PM   #49
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Melakon wrote: View Post
McCoy's trick might have resulted in some gradual changes to the ritual though. When Spock thought he had killed Kirk, that was enough to snap him out of it, without the final blow being lethal. Perhaps Nerfed ahn-woons and lirpas were later used, or the opponents were given some sort of delayed action knock-out drops.
Two thoughts on that:

1) If the combatants know it isn't a combat to the death, will it have the same chemical effect on the Vulcan brain?

2) How much did Spock's human biology have to do with the fact he didn't need the sex for the effects of Pon Farr to wear off?
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Old October 13 2013, 07:22 PM   #50
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

The Dead Mixer wrote: View Post
Their biology strips them of their logic at this time...therefore they don't deal with it "logically".
It's understandable for the affected individual not to behave logically, and for the society to find release valves. That's different from the society choosing the particular release valve of battle to the death.

I mean, even you insist on not letting the guy just go work it out with the Vulcan equivalent of a mind-melding "working girl [and/or boy, let's not be heteronormative]," and it absolutely must be a contest-for-the-woman thing, there are all sorts of athletic and/or psychic competitions you could figure out that don't involve battling to the death. Even if the thrill of possible death is required to release the angst of pon farr, there are still many options available that wouldn't involve gladiatorial combat.

(Of course, gladiatorial combat has the advantage of not requiring the budget of filming Kirk and Spock doing an iron-man triathlon.)

Thank you BillJ for the reminder of "Blood Fever." So, the idea was reused once... by Voyager. For whatever that's worth.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:30 PM   #51
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

BigJake wrote: View Post

(Of course, gladiatorial combat has the advantage of not requiring the budget of filming Kirk and Spock doing an iron-man triathlon.)
This is TV. What fun would it be if the stakes aren't incredibly high?


Thank you BillJ for the reminder of "Blood Fever." So, the idea was reused once... by Voyager. For whatever that's worth.
You asked. It's all part of the greater Star Trek tapestry and "Blood Fever" is actually one of Voyager's better outings.
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Old October 13 2013, 08:25 PM   #52
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

I kinda agree with the Doc in VOY about Vulcans being very tight lipped about the Pon Farr.

EMH: For such an intellectually enlightened race, Vulcans have a remarkably Victorian attitude about sex.
TUVOK: That is a very human judgement, Doctor.
EMH: Then here's a Vulcan one. I fail to see the logic in perpetuating ignorance about a basic biological function.
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Old October 13 2013, 08:45 PM   #53
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Well perhaps with more Vulcan's serving in Starfleet, perhaps some details did come out to explain why your Vulcan crew might need a few days off every seven years.
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Old October 14 2013, 12:10 AM   #54
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

BigJake wrote: View Post
It's understandable for the affected individual not to behave logically, and for the society to find release valves. That's different from the society choosing the particular release valve of battle to the death.
You can try to outthink it all you want, but that's how it works for them, as seen in the episode. They all go through it, and as a society, they are anything but rational about it. I'll reiterate, this sort of thing may even have a religious significance to them.

Bottom line, it's all about the contrast. They bottle up their emotions most of the time, but when the combination of biology and time-honored ritual causes them to let their hair down, look out!
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Old October 14 2013, 06:03 PM   #55
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

The Dead Mixer wrote: View Post
You can try to outthink it all you want, but that's how it works for them, as seen in the episode.
No kidding.
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Old October 14 2013, 08:34 PM   #56
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Honestly, rewatching the episode, Kirk should've been able to put together that he was going to have to fight Spock to the death.

Amok Time wrote:
KIRK: He described it to me as meaning marriage or challenge. In the distant past, Vulcans killed to win their mates.
Amok Time wrote:
T'PAU: What they are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. This is our way. Kah-if-farr.
Kirk just didn't put two and two together.
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Old October 14 2013, 09:30 PM   #57
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Honestly, rewatching the episode, Kirk should've been able to put together that he was going to have to fight Spock to the death.

Amok Time wrote:
KIRK: He described it to me as meaning marriage or challenge. In the distant past, Vulcans killed to win their mates.
Amok Time wrote:
T'PAU: What they are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. This is our way. Kah-if-farr.
Kirk just didn't put two and two together.
There is an old article in Trek Magazine where someone posed the question of what T'Pau was actually referring to, since she spoke those words before T'Pring challenged. Since everyone there except T'Pring and Stonn expected a normal marriage to take place, what was T'Pau warning Kirk about?

The article concluded that the ceremony would have ended with a public consummation (one logical reason why the parents weren't there!) and T'Pau was cautioning Kirk and McCoy that this is what was expected to happen.
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Old October 14 2013, 11:57 PM   #58
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
The article concluded that the ceremony would have ended with a public consummation (one logical reason why the parents weren't there!) and T'Pau was cautioning Kirk and McCoy that this is what was expected to happen.
Just imagine Kirk and McCoy's reactions to that happening.

McCoy stands there grimacing uncomfortably while Kirk tries to to hand out high-fives to scowling Vulcans.
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Old October 15 2013, 12:18 AM   #59
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
The article concluded that the ceremony would have ended with a public consummation (one logical reason why the parents weren't there!) and T'Pau was cautioning Kirk and McCoy that this is what was expected to happen.
Just imagine Kirk and McCoy's reactions to that happening.

McCoy stands there grimacing uncomfortably while Kirk tries to to hand out high-fives to scowling Vulcans.
Maybe the immature jackass Kirk of nuTrek would have done that, but TOS-Kirk wouldn't have. TOS-McCoy would have been uncomfortable if Spock and T'Pring had consummated the marriage in public, but not privately. Actually, I think both Kirk and McCoy would have been glad for Spock (since both men enjoy sex and consider it a normal, enjoyable part of life), but they would have been uncomfortable if it had taken place in public.
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Old October 15 2013, 12:37 AM   #60
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Re: Amok Time repercussions?

Timewalker wrote: View Post

Maybe the immature jackass Kirk of nuTrek would have done that...
Oh Jesus. What does nuTrek have to do with this discussion?
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