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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 14 2013, 05:25 PM   #136
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
You see, I'm actually fine with the references you mentioned right there, because they're not vital. Just little easter eggs for fun, not something the film really depended on.
The film hardly "depended" on the crew knowing about OldSpock. It's obvious they were made aware of it at some point, but we never do see when or why. They chose to address it in the tie-in material, but had they elected NOT to do so, it would have been as much of a "plot hole" as Admiral Kirk suddenly having an adult son named David Marcus that we never saw or heard of before.

It also gives the Enterprise a sense of history to those who never actually read those comics. I actually thought the Mudd incident was referring to Harry Mudd, as in they have already encountered him by this point. I still consider the thing with the crew being totally casual to the conversation minor, but I detest the idea that you have to read a comic book tie on or a video game tie in just to understand why there are holes the film left open.
I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what a "plot hole" is.

However, it is very different from references in IRON MAN 3, because at least those are expected to be picked up because it's safe to assume a major chunk of your audience has seen THE AVENGERS, which was a major film, not a comic book or video game.
Not really. The plot twist of having the Mandarin turn out to be a drunken British actor working for someone a lot worse goes right over the heads of anyone who never read the Iron Man comics and doesn't know who the original Mandarin actually was. Actually, the post-credits scene in "The Avengers" has this feature too since I haven't met anyone under the age of about 37 who knows who Thanos is.

For me, the only canon that truly matters is the films.
That basically ceased to be the case four years ago.
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Old October 15 2013, 12:10 AM   #137
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Q was an actual threat to the universe in power, but not in attitude. Khan was the most driven villain in star trek
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Old October 15 2013, 02:14 AM   #138
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
You see, I'm actually fine with the references you mentioned right there, because they're not vital. Just little easter eggs for fun, not something the film really depended on.
The film hardly "depended" on the crew knowing about OldSpock. It's obvious they were made aware of it at some point, but we never do see when or why. They chose to address it in the tie-in material, but had they elected NOT to do so, it would have been as much of a "plot hole" as Admiral Kirk suddenly having an adult son named David Marcus that we never saw or heard of before.
I brought it up because I thought it was a peculiar thing that nobody seemed to be weirded out on the bridge, especially Bones. Why it struck me as peculiar is because Spock seemed to want to stay incognito so not to interfere with anyone else's path, even in STID he says he made that vow. Before actually seeing the film, I assumed Spock would contact via small monitor, privately. Then his whole face fills up the screen. OH. But like I always said, it's only minor. My problem with the scene isn't the bridge crews' non-reaction, it's just how much the inclusion of OldSpock feels like fan service to me. OH, IT'S NIMOY, HE'S TALKING ABOUT KHAN!!! FANGASM!!! REMEMBER TWOK? GREAT FILM RIGHT? And as I said, I preferred that Nimoy bowed out in the 2009 film because it felt like the right thing to do, having him pass on the torch, letting the new cast go onto their own unique adventures. That's what I really want for this new crew, not to revisit old ideas whether it's NimoySpock or Khan.

It also gives the Enterprise a sense of history to those who never actually read those comics. I actually thought the Mudd incident was referring to Harry Mudd, as in they have already encountered him by this point. I still consider the thing with the crew being totally casual to the conversation minor, but I detest the idea that you have to read a comic book tie on or a video game tie in just to understand why there are holes the film left open.
I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what a "plot hole" is.
I'm not saying the Spock convo itself was a hole, I just hate the idea of films leaving it to other media to explain away errors/holes/ect. That hasn't happened with Trek, so far, but I've seen that in other franchises and would dislike Trek to fall down that trap.

However, it is very different from references in IRON MAN 3, because at least those are expected to be picked up because it's safe to assume a major chunk of your audience has seen THE AVENGERS, which was a major film, not a comic book or video game.
Not really. The plot twist of having the Mandarin turn out to be a drunken British actor working for someone a lot worse goes right over the heads of anyone who never read the Iron Man comics and doesn't know who the original Mandarin actually was. Actually, the post-credits scene in "The Avengers" has this feature too since I haven't met anyone under the age of about 37 who knows who Thanos is.
That's not what I was actually talking about. I'm referring to IRON MAN 3 recalling events from previous installments such as Stark throwing the missile into the wormhole. I say those references work fine because it's safe to assume most would pick up on that given how popular these films are. You are right of the Mandarin thing though. I didn't know what the exact spoiler was, but I was aware something happened with the character that would irritate comic book readers. I'm more of a casual reader, I never heard of the villain especially since I know very little of IRON MAN in the realm of comic books. As much as I enjoyed the film, I can understand why fans might be upset, seeing that a popular villain was radically altered to their expectations. I think it's too bad, because I was curious to see the Mandarin and what makes him one of Stark's best antagonists. A proper adaptations rather than a twist. It was a clever twist though, much more clever than Khan 2.0. Much better marketed too, where Trek's filmmakers simply said "no, it's not Khan, I swear".

For me, the only canon that truly matters is the films.
That basically ceased to be the case four years ago.
That's too bad then, since I have zero interest in getting into the comic books and video games, especially since I've heard awful things about the latter. As long as the Trek films don't depend too much on tie-ins, I'm totally fine with the idea of canon expanded.
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Old October 15 2013, 11:05 AM   #139
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

If I were young Spock, had been on a few missions but then something HUGE came up like what was going on in Into Darkness, I would be very tempted to ask my older self for advice about the very very dangerous guy the captain just went space jumping with. I think it's logical and works in-universe, as well as on the meta level some are hung up about.
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Old October 15 2013, 02:00 PM   #140
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

I don't dispute that, I would just prefer this crew to stand on their own and take on adventures where they don't need to contact Spock Prime for advice. I could let it slide the first time because I'd accept that as a sort of passing the baton, but twice in a row is pushing it.
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Old October 16 2013, 07:16 PM   #141
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
You see, I'm actually fine with the references you mentioned right there, because they're not vital. Just little easter eggs for fun, not something the film really depended on.
The film hardly "depended" on the crew knowing about OldSpock. It's obvious they were made aware of it at some point, but we never do see when or why. They chose to address it in the tie-in material, but had they elected NOT to do so, it would have been as much of a "plot hole" as Admiral Kirk suddenly having an adult son named David Marcus that we never saw or heard of before.
I brought it up because I thought it was a peculiar thing that nobody seemed to be weirded out on the bridge, especially Bones.
Right. Sort of like how nobody seemed weirded out by the fact that Kirk had an adult son named David. They knew about it already, or at least knew enough about Kirk to know that he had a son even if they didn't know anything about him.

Same thing in STID: they knew about OldSpock's time adventures. Which is why Uhura doesn't question him when he asks her to route a call to New Vulcan.

For me, the only canon that truly matters is the films.
That basically ceased to be the case four years ago.
That's too bad then, since I have zero interest in getting into the comic books and video games, especially since I've heard awful things about the latter. As long as the Trek films don't depend too much on tie-ins, I'm totally fine with the idea of canon expanded.
The game was actually pretty good, it's the comics that have started to get lazy.


Either way, the tie-in marketting isn't that crucial to the film in the first place; again, Carol and David made their debut in Wrath of Khan and their existence wasn't even HINTED at in the prior Trek novels (or the Animated Series, which for years was also considered a non-canon tie in production).
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Old October 16 2013, 07:45 PM   #142
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The film hardly "depended" on the crew knowing about OldSpock. It's obvious they were made aware of it at some point, but we never do see when or why. They chose to address it in the tie-in material, but had they elected NOT to do so, it would have been as much of a "plot hole" as Admiral Kirk suddenly having an adult son named David Marcus that we never saw or heard of before.
I brought it up because I thought it was a peculiar thing that nobody seemed to be weirded out on the bridge, especially Bones.
Right. Sort of like how nobody seemed weirded out by the fact that Kirk had an adult son named David. They knew about it already, or at least knew enough about Kirk to know that he had a son even if they didn't know anything about him.
Wouldn't be sure if that's comparable. They at least built up to that reveal, so it's not like it came out of nowhere. Similar to the magic blood in STID. Many criticize it, saying it came out of nowhere. Even though I don't like the idea of the magic blood, at least they had built up to that from the beginning, so I give them credit on that.

Same thing in STID: they knew about OldSpock's time adventures. Which is why Uhura doesn't question him when he asks her to route a call to New Vulcan.
Thing is, until he shows up on the viewscreen, you only know that Spock, Kirk, Scotty and his Ewok are the only people aware of him. I'm speaking from the perspective of a viewer who only watches the films and doesn't read any comics or play the video games. In that moment I was a bit thrown off.

Either way, the tie-in marketting isn't that crucial to the film in the first place; again, Carol and David made their debut in Wrath of Khan and their existence wasn't even HINTED at in the prior Trek novels (or the Animated Series, which for years was also considered a non-canon tie in production).
It didn't need to be, as we learn that Kirk promised that he would stay away and he did so by moving on with his life. It's clearly a subject that still guts him to that day, so it's likely something he was never comfortable talking about with anyone, not even his friends. McCoy is certainly aware of that side of Kirk and makes a remark about it, to which Kirk replies "as a physician you of all people should appreciate the danger of re-opening old wounds."
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Old October 17 2013, 03:21 AM   #143
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

So back to the OP. Two words: Doomsday Machine as most dangerous enemy. Eats planets. Neutronium hull. Phasers bounce off.

I'd like to see Kirk & crew take that on without the Constellation hanging around.
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Old October 17 2013, 03:47 AM   #144
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Can a thing be an enemy? It was a machine, there was no evil or malevolence. It was simply doing what it was designed to do. The "foe" in that episode was Decker.
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Old October 17 2013, 04:03 AM   #145
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Search4 wrote: View Post
So back to the OP. Two words: Doomsday Machine as most dangerous enemy. Eats planets. Neutronium hull. Phasers bounce off.

I'd like to see Kirk & crew take that on without the Constellation hanging around.
And that's how you send the Nu-Enterprise out in glory and bookend the movies: Kirk piloting the Enterprise down the throat of the Doomsday Machine while the crew evacuates in shuttles.
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Old October 17 2013, 07:07 AM   #146
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Search4 wrote: View Post
So back to the OP. Two words: Doomsday Machine as most dangerous enemy. Eats planets. Neutronium hull. Phasers bounce off.

I'd like to see Kirk & crew take that on without the Constellation hanging around.
And that's how you send the Nu-Enterprise out in glory...
But I like the nuEnterprise.
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Old October 17 2013, 05:42 PM   #147
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

is Khan STID the original Khan? This question was on the air in the comic Star Trek:Khan #1.
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Old October 17 2013, 05:54 PM   #148
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

ralph wrote: View Post
is Khan STID the original Khan? This question was on the air in the comic Star Trek:Khan #1.
Is that the comic which just came out recently?
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Old October 17 2013, 07:16 PM   #149
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

ralph wrote: View Post
is Khan STID the original Khan?
Looks like it so far.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/171...darkness.jhtml

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Old October 17 2013, 08:02 PM   #150
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
ralph wrote: View Post
is Khan STID the original Khan? This question was on the air in the comic Star Trek:Khan #1.
Is that the comic which just came out recently?
Yes. I think it will get more interesting in the next issues.
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