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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 14 2013, 01:57 AM   #46
DonIago
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Which part of "the colonists chose to live under the Cardassian government" wasn't clear to you?

I'm left wondering exactly what the colonists thought was going to happen to them. First they choose to live perilously close to a hostile government, then they choose to live under that government instead of leaving when they're given the chance, then they decide they'd rather stir things up and risk provoking an interstellar war than move.

If nothing else had persuaded them, I'd have thought Dukat's selling out of Cardassia to the Dominion would have gotten their attention. If I'd been a Maquis, the minute I learned that the Jem'hadar would be "resolving" the situation I would have packed up and fled for the nearest Federation planet. Hell, I might have even made an effort to (re)join Starfleet and worry about my own measly planet after the war was over.

In an age of transporters, replicators, holodecks, etc., "this is our home!!!" is IMO an especially weak argument under the circumstances.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:48 AM   #47
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ Indeed.

The Federation had to sign that treaty; that much is obvious. Either sign the treaty, or go to war with Cardassia. And the Federation was perfectly willing to help the colonists move; it can be realistically argued that the colonists HAD to move, to preserve the greater good (peace with Cardassia).
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Old October 14 2013, 03:09 AM   #48
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

DonIago wrote: View Post
then they choose to live under that government instead of leaving when they're given the chance, then they decide they'd rather stir things up and risk provoking an interstellar war than move.
I'm pretty sure the trouble started when the Cardassian government violated the treaty by arming their colonies.

So yeah the federation failed the Maquis in that they never bothered to make sure the Cardassians (who have been known to violate agreements before) obeyed the treaty.
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Old October 14 2013, 03:21 AM   #49
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ It was Cardassian territory. What was the Federation supposed to do, barge into their space on their own?
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Old October 14 2013, 04:47 AM   #50
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
then they choose to live under that government instead of leaving when they're given the chance, then they decide they'd rather stir things up and risk provoking an interstellar war than move.
I'm pretty sure the trouble started when the Cardassian government violated the treaty by arming their colonies.

So yeah the federation failed the Maquis in that they never bothered to make sure the Cardassians (who have been known to violate agreements before) obeyed the treaty.
Sooo...a nation already believed to be oppressive to live under ended up oppressing people living under it?

It's too bad nobody could have possibly seen that one coming.
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Old October 14 2013, 05:21 AM   #51
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Also, the Prime Directive would seem to apply here. These colonists renounced their Federation citizenship and lived as citizens of the Cardassian Union. So if the Federation tried to interfere, that would be a breach of the PD and could lead to war.

Indeed, wasn't Eddington bragging about how the Maquis were going to declare independence? (Although that could have been an instance of Eddington being the egotistical jackass that he was.)
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Old October 14 2013, 05:34 AM   #52
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

It's also entirely possible that the Federation would have done more about the situation but simply wasn't in a position to do so. Didn't Picard and Nechayev both agree that the treaty was sub-par? It's possible if Starfleet had been more built up at the time that they could have pushed for a better treaty and/or made more of an effort to uphold it afterward. As it was I suspect they were happy enough that war didn't break out.
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Old October 14 2013, 07:24 AM   #53
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Yeah because peace at all costs sure worked well with Cardassia. They only attempted to sieze Minos Korva while they were negotiating that treaty, routinely attacked Federaton targets when it suited their agenda afterward, and let's not forget that little thing called being the catalyst to the Dominion war. That was well worth selling out their own people for.
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Old October 14 2013, 08:55 AM   #54
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

DonIago wrote: View Post
Which part of "the colonists chose to live under the Cardassian government" wasn't clear to you?
Which part of - watch 'The Maquis' again - is not clear to you?
Among the many revelations you will have is that the colonists chose to live in the DMZ under federation government.
Also, if the Maquis were really under Cardassian government, then the federation had no right to hunt them down as criminals, etc.

As for the rest of your post, your attempts to blame the victims are transparent enough to be clear to everyone who caress to look at the depicted situation even half-way objectively.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:24 PM   #55
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

(laughs) Okie-doke.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:26 PM   #56
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Yeah because peace at all costs sure worked well with Cardassia. They only attempted to sieze Minos Korva while they were negotiating that treaty, routinely attacked Federaton targets when it suited their agenda afterward, and let's not forget that little thing called being the catalyst to the Dominion war. That was well worth selling out their own people for.
And yet none of those things ultimately led to a war which it seems the Federation couldn't have afforded at the time.

I think Star Trek fans have a tendency to assume Starfleet can handle any situation that arises when looking back at things that occurred during TNG it seems obvious that they must have had limits to their resources at the time.
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Old October 14 2013, 06:33 PM   #57
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Or a tendency to assume that peace at all costs doesn't work on a nation that doesn't want peace. Sacrifice a lot to avoid a small war today, only to fight a big one tomorrow. Good call.
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Old October 14 2013, 06:57 PM   #58
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ It was Cardassian territory.
No it was the Demilitarized Zone

Memory Alpha wrote:
The Demilitarized Zone (sometimes referred to as the DMZ) was a buffer zone in the Alpha Quadrant. The zone was established between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, by the terms of the Federation-Cardassian Treaty of 2370. According to the treaty, neither side was permitted to deploy armed starships, or establish military bases in the Zone.

which means NO WEAPONS, none, zip, zero, nada

What was the Federation supposed to do,
How about making sure the Demilitarized Zone was staying demilitarized since otherwise that whole treaty the Federation and the Cardassians came up with the inconvenienced a lot of people for the chance of peace ISN'T WORTH S!@T.
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Old October 14 2013, 07:27 PM   #59
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Both sides messed up IMO.

Some of the Maquis had some strange ideas about home- colonize a planet on the border with Cardassia, even though they were warned not to do it.

Just taking a look at what Cardassian military can be like should have made that decision easy.

The Federation is prosperous- they have plenty of planets to choose from.

At the same time, the Federation bent over backwards to please the Cardassians, even after all their plots and schemes were uncovered.

The truth is though, that any group of people who are stubborn enough to move onto a planet right on a disputed border with a hostile power with a reputation for brutality, despite being warned--

-- is going to the be the same type to form a terrorist/resistance group and fight unto every one of them is wiped out.
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Old October 15 2013, 03:02 AM   #60
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Your location says you're from California.. would you feel the same if the US ceded California to Mexico as part of an agreement to stop drug cartel violence, and the Mexican Army began to oppress the people there? You'd just up and leave and not care because the rest of the US is prosperous? Even if it was your own family that was indiscriminately targeted?
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