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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 13 2013, 10:36 AM   #121
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Determining whether the Baku have sovereignty or not should not be the responsibility of a body which has a vested interest in a 'negative' outcome, legally or morally.
Okay, by that reasoning the determination could not be made by the Baku either. Or the Sona.

Would you like to suggest a neutral third party?
At the very least, it's a decision for the Federation courts. Some kind of arbitration would probably be better. But certainly not one party making and enforcing their own determination without even informing the other.

We only even have Dougherty's word that the mission is even really approved by the Council at all.
We only have Anij's word that the Baku have been on the planet for three centuries.
Fair enough.

I saw no nervousness.

Dougherty's? My take is that he was brought in only after the Council made the decision to proceed, and he would have been assigned by Starfleet Command.
Not saying it's the only interpretation, just that the movie doesn't actually do much to contradict it.

Ensigns of Command. Humans (simplistically) got there first, but this didn't grant them ownership or sovereignty over the planet. As it turns out, the planet was in someone else space.
This is only relevant if the planet actually *was* in someone else's space when the Baku arrived. The movie never says that. Claims of other posters here have yet to be proven.

By this standard, any colony can be uprooted for any reason.
It's important to remember that the Baku were being removed solely to prevent them from being killed by the harvesting of the particles. If the harvesting process wasn't going to kill the Baku, likely no effort would have been made to move them.
It's also important to remember that relocation isn't necessarily as simple and unintrusive as Dougherty or maybe even the Fed. Council may think. What if the Baku actually had been a primitive society and their plan actually did succeed? A civilization that has enjoyed the anonymity and protection of the natural barrier of the Briar patch, now suddenly finds itself in open space surrounded by various hostile alien empires and all manner of potential hazards, without any idea that anything has changed. Hell, looking at Space Seed v. WoK, the Federation can't even guarantee that whatever perfectly safe and familiar planet they relocate these people to won't actually wind up turning against them.

And it's also important to remember that the Federation is apparently doing all this for nothing better than a longer lifespan. In an age where lifespans are already at the human maximum. How is that an even remotely good justification?

The point, however, is the Federation's rules are supposed to be a little more fair-minded than 'want, take, have'.
But the Federation also isn't a bunch of pushovers, just because the pretty tree-hugging white people are all soft and defenseless, doesn't mean that the Federation now has to back off.

If might doesn't make right, can't the same thing be said about being weak.
Of course being weak doesn't make someone right. Being right makes someone right. The evidence offered by the film makes the baku more in the right than the federation.

The particles will help billions. Not several hundred in a quaint little village ... billions. The fact is the Federation is ultimately the altruistic party here, the Baku (once Picard told them the truth) were being selfish by not voluntarily leaving. They were earlier being selfish by not tell the surrounding galaxy the truth shortly after arriving on the planet.
The particles will help billions who don't need help. You don't 'need' to live 200 years. And the film never even bothered to answer other important questions, like how long would the collected radiation last, and isn't the Federation actually destroying its only known source in order to collect it? Once everyone's good and hooked on living 200 years, what happens when the supply runs out and there is no planet left to provide more?

And there is no moral imperative to tell the world how great your home is. And certainly not to bend to the will of people who have admitted they intended to kidnap you rather than even attempt a reasonable discussion.
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Old October 13 2013, 10:29 PM   #122
publiusr
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Re: The Son'a

I'd like to see more stories on the properties of the planet. If thaleron radiation destroys life, and the Genesis effect goes wild, perhaps they could be combined to have growth go to a certain point then stop--with the Baku effect negating the deadly effects of shinzons weapon--which just ends a genesis wave...
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Old October 14 2013, 03:09 AM   #123
Hober Mallow
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Re: The Son'a

publiusr wrote: View Post
I'd like to see more stories on the properties of the planet.
I feel like the one story we got was one too many.
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Old October 14 2013, 06:12 PM   #124
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

If there is a continuation of TNG-timeline sometime in the future (unlikely), I would like to see Starfleet vessels actually using the particles to treat patients.


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Old October 19 2013, 03:06 AM   #125
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
If there is a continuation of TNG-timeline sometime in the future (unlikely), I would like to see Starfleet vessels actually using the particles to treat patients.
Why not just use the 600 other things they have that can do that.

I mean metaphysic particles are kind of pathetic next to technology that can raise the freaking dead.
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Old October 20 2013, 06:55 PM   #126
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Why not just use the 600 other things they have that can do that.

I mean metaphysic particles are kind of pathetic next to technology that can raise the freaking dead.
We don't know how reliable and consistent those "other ways" are, there does seem to be a reluctance to employ them. Nor how acceptable they are to the majority people of the federation membership.

Sure federation medical science can give Picard an artificial heart, LaForge a visual scanner, and Neelix one transplanted lung. But in terms of a more natural treatment and a holistic medical approach, the particles would be more in line with that.

The fact of the matter is after Picard had his heart destroyed in a fight, Starfleet choose NOT to put him through a transporter to repair the damage. Nor did Nog get his leg fixed in short order. Nor did Picard's brother and nephew get brought back from "the freaking dead."

You might be seriously over estimating what therapies are generally available in the 24th century.

People still require natural occurring drugs that only come from a single source, and that would include the particles from the ring planet.

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Old October 20 2013, 11:38 PM   #127
The Overlord
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Re: The Son'a

I still don't see why the Ba'ku have a better claim to the planet then the Son'a.
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Old October 21 2013, 07:46 AM   #128
David.Blue
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Re: The Son'a

According to Picard, Federation law is on his side. I tend to believe him.
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Old October 21 2013, 01:01 PM   #129
CommishSleer
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Re: The Son'a

David.Blue wrote: View Post
According to Picard, Federation law is on his side. I tend to believe him.
Was that before or after he found out that the Son'a were really Baku?
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Old October 21 2013, 03:34 PM   #130
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

I do wonder what the result was going to be from the review ordered by the federation council at the end of the movie.

In Journey's End, when Admiral N requested a review on a previous council decision, three day later the council's reply was "our previous decision stands."

Would that be the case with the ring planet? Proceed with the harvest of the particles, have the Sona (really their servants) build another collector and distribute the particles to health care facilities across the federation, with a share of the particles going to the Sona.


^(oo)^
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Old October 21 2013, 04:14 PM   #131
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Why not just use the 600 other things they have that can do that.

I mean metaphysic particles are kind of pathetic next to technology that can raise the freaking dead.
We don't know how reliable and consistent those "other ways" are, there does seem to be a reluctance to employ them. Nor how acceptable they are to the majority people of the federation membership.

Sure federation medical science can give Picard an artificial heart, LaForge a visual scanner, and Neelix one transplanted lung. But in terms of a more natural treatment and a holistic medical approach, the particles would be more in line with that.
Not that tech.

I'm talking about the good shit.

transporters that can de-age and re-age people with a couple of button presses, the genesis effect which can raise the dead, replicators that can make replicate tissue, and ect.

All these one off wonders the federation always seems to forget about at the end of the episode.
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Old October 21 2013, 04:34 PM   #132
R. Star
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Re: The Son'a

I just want to know how a small group of rural pacifists managed to exile a group of violent technology lovers.
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Old October 21 2013, 06:08 PM   #133
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

Their parents told them to go sit on a chair, facing a corner.



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Old October 22 2013, 04:49 PM   #134
sonak
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Re: The Son'a

David.Blue wrote: View Post
According to Picard, Federation law is on his side. I tend to believe him.

why?


Dougherty and the Federation Council didn't seem to think so.
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Old October 23 2013, 11:26 AM   #135
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
We don't know how reliable and consistent those "other ways" are, there does seem to be a reluctance to employ them.
transporters that can de-age and re-age people with a couple of button presses, the genesis effect which can raise the dead, replicators that can make replicate tissue, and ect.

All these one off wonders the federation always seems to forget about at the end of the episode.
When Tasha Yar was killed on an away mission, Doctor Crusher's first medical procedure wasn't to immediately feed the body through the transporter using Tasha's pattern from when she last beamed down. The fact that they do not routinely employ this "easy fix" indicates that there something wrong with employing it. There's a reason it isn't the standard.

Replicators have a problem producing living organisms or flesh. It wasn't possible to simply replicate a new lung for Neelix. Nor could they scan Picard's vascular and muscle tissues and replicate a new heart for implantation into his chest.

Finding a life-less planet to "Genesis-cide" every time you want to raise someone from the dead might be difficult. Plus Spock's resurrection could have involved a series of coincidences, misunderstood events and exact timings that would prove impossible to reproduce.

Hartzilla2007, these people can't even restore Geordie's natural sight.



Last edited by T'Girl; October 23 2013 at 11:40 AM.
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