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Old October 11 2013, 09:09 AM   #46
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

WillsBabe wrote: View Post
It seems to me that she is affecting him in some way.
I always took it that Sulu was more affected by the way she looked than anything else. Persis Khambatta made being bald look stunningly beautiful.

As for what's been written in novelisations of the films, all of that is still non-canon (even the work of Mr Roddenberry) so until such time as it is spoken in a film or on a series then there really isn't a basis to it. Personnally I'm all for there being a Deltan in the next series, T've always thought they were an underused species.
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Old October 11 2013, 09:37 AM   #47
F. King Daniel
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

If you're gonna reject all non-canon info about Deltans, realize that by those criteria, we don't even know they're bald. Illia may have just shaved her naturally bright turquoise hair for all we know.
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Old October 11 2013, 02:10 PM   #48
Shawnster
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
WillsBabe wrote: View Post
It seems to me that she is affecting him in some way.
I always took it that Sulu was more affected by the way she looked than anything else. Persis Khambatta made being bald look stunningly beautiful.
Screen evidence shows or implies more than that, though.
1. Uhura felt the need to specify Ilia was Deltan.
2. As soon as Uhura says the above, Sulu gets a look on his face that can be described as excitement.
3. Deltans take an Oath of Celibacy that, perhaps, other species do not take.

From this we can gather Deltans have some kind of reputation that elicits an excited response. Sulu's fumbling around as he takes Lt. Ilia in hand further highlights his excited stated.

I think this is enough to demonstrate that Sulu is not simply reacting to a "bald is beautiful" mindset. I'm not saying it's pheromones, I'm saying there is more to the scene than just an initial attraction at first sight.

Likewise, this thread is the first I've heard of the pheromones theory. Oh, maybe not the first - I did read the TMP novel. I simply don't remember any references to this prior to now.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If you're gonna reject all non-canon info about Deltans, realize that by those criteria, we don't even know they're bald. Illia may have just shaved her naturally bright turquoise hair for all we know.
I've had similar thoughts. I've wondered if we just assume all Deltans are bald. We've only seen one Deltan female. Of course, if you look at this as a TV/Movie production you can safely conclude that was the intent of the creators. They wouldn't go through and shave her head simply to imply some personal style choice by the character.
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Old October 11 2013, 04:20 PM   #49
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If you're gonna reject all non-canon info about Deltans, realize that by those criteria, we don't even know they're bald. Illia may have just shaved her naturally bright turquoise hair for all we know.
The writers/directors guide for Phase 2/TMP included this note on Deltans: completely hairless except for the eyes. Seeing as how production notes are the basis for what appears on screen, I tend to pay them a little more attention than what appears in novels.

Also at present, all the Deltans seen thus far on screen have been bald (from Ilia in TMP to four Council Members in the background in TVH).
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Old October 11 2013, 06:14 PM   #50
F. King Daniel
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

When that novel was written by Gene Roddenberry himself, I think it's safe to say it's at least as authoritative as what was written (also by Roddenberry) in the P2 writers' guide.
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Old October 11 2013, 06:43 PM   #51
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Shawnster wrote: View Post
. . .we can gather Deltans have some kind of reputation that elicits an excited response. Sulu's fumbling around as he takes Lt. Ilia in hand further highlights his excited state. . .
He might have had a little trouble standing up from a sitting position too. Women can sometimes have that effect on men, so it might have been amplified to the nth power with Deltans when first meeting them.
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Old October 11 2013, 11:17 PM   #52
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Sam_I_Am wrote: View Post
So, maybe this has been discussed, maybe it hasn't, but what do you suppose happens when, for example, a gay human male meets a female Deltan? Will her pheromones attract him or not?
Stumbling back to the OP.

Even with the pheromones in play, a homosexual man isn't suddenly going to be sexually attracted to Deltan female. However, if the male is bisexual, then likely he would.

Similarly, if a heterosexual male is "exposed" to the pheromones of a Deltan male (do they have them too?), there would be no sexual attraction.

Now if the Deltan pheromones were not of the usual kind found here on Earth, if the were some sort of additional mind altering effect from them, then anything would be possible.

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Old October 12 2013, 03:04 AM   #53
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

I don't know for sure about how the Deltans pheromones worked. I know in Dwellers of the Crucible that the three Deltons often had sexual trysts together, which would be two males and one female. I think the human female sometimes added herself to the fun. Perhaps a female Deltan could possibly have the pheromones to turn on a gay human man. But who knows? If a gay man's brain is wired for men...then it's possible that a female Deltan would have the same affect that she would have with a female human. Nothing.

But there are VERY few gay characters in the StarTrek Universe. Perhaps they've found a cure in the future (sarcasm). I saw a web episode where Kirk's nephew (now grown) has a male lover. There was also a lesbian episode in Deep Space Nine. Enterprise was supposed to have a secret gay man aboard. Rumor was that it was Lieutenant Malcolm Reed. However, we all know that idea NEVER came to pass. I read an article years ago during the "gay" discussion about adding a gay character to Enterprise. They interviewed Scott Bakula about it...and he said he was against having a gay man aboard the Enterprise... however he would be open to have a lesbian character aboard. I think that Bakula was only concerned for the health of the series, and was afraid that a gay man aboard just might cause a few viewers to stop watching the series. But I personally can't confirm this.

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Old October 12 2013, 03:31 AM   #54
Tiberius
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
^ But in Deltan society, sex isn't just for procreation. It is part of literally every facet of their lives. Deltans are pretty much f*cking all the time. So it would seem that their bodies would produce pheromones constantly, to serve this purpose.
Why would they produce pheromones all the time if they have lots of sex? On earth, bonobos have a highly sexualized society, and I don't think they are constantly producing sex pheromones.
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Old October 12 2013, 03:37 AM   #55
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Since I was born hard-wired for attraction to the same gender, the Deltan pheromones would either attract me to male Deltans or not work on me.
Maybe, but maybe not. It depends on what it is that makes Human males respond to Deltan females so greatly.

Let's say that the presence of higher levels of testosterone is what causes Human males to respond so strongly to Deltan females. Perhaps the pheromones have a chemical reaction with the testosterone to create an aphrodisiac. If this is the case, the higher the levels of testosterone a person has, the more strongly that person will respond to the pheromones of the Deltan females. As a male, you have higher levels of testosterone, so you'll have that same chemical reaction and find that when you are around a Deltan woman, you'll be getting aroused. May not mean that you'll find her sexually attractive, of course, and you'll probably focus your attention on a male Deltan instead, but the chemical reaction would be there. It could lead to gay human men not particularly enjoying the presence of Deltan women.

Something to think about, anyway.

BTW, this post is in no way meant to suggest that a gay person can be turned straight with the right chemicals. All I'm saying is that if a particular pheromone causes sexual arousal in Human males, then it will cause that arousal no matter what the source of that pheromone is. Perhaps Deltan males produce the same pheromone, which could cause straight guys to wonder why Deltan men make them horny.
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Old October 12 2013, 03:56 AM   #56
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
. . .Perhaps they've found a cure in the future. . .
I have to raise an eyebrow at the intended meaning of this. You're saying homosexuality is an illness or disease?
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Old October 12 2013, 04:45 AM   #57
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Melakon wrote: View Post
SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
. . .Perhaps they've found a cure in the future. . .
I have to raise an eyebrow at the intended meaning of this. You're saying homosexuality is an illness or disease?
I have to concur: Shenanigans Alert. That the Trek franchise was relatively cowardly on this point (perhaps understandably so, I suppose it's an easy judgment to make this side of the very recent sea change in the gay rights struggle) need not lead us into validating homophobic attitudes as part of the setting.

Tiberius wrote:
Why would they produce pheromones all the time if they have lots of sex?
This is why I like the intepretation of pheromones as being an inherent part of Deltans' sexual sophistication. If they need specific pheromonal cues to make sex possible, and use them voluntarily for that reason, this would potentially make them a species without rape (for example) and would justify their view of other humanoid species as "sexually immature."
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Old October 12 2013, 06:45 AM   #58
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
Perhaps they've found a cure in the future.
Well that's a pretty serious loaded statement . Let's assume though that it is impossible to "cure" a fundamental part of a person's being (they still have baldness by the 24th century) and move on from there.

SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
Rumor was that it was Lieutenant Malcolm Reed.
Come on, its pretty obvious watching "Harbinger" that if there hadn't been for the emergency situation aboard ship, the Reed and Hayes fight would turned into some uber-passionate man-on-man loving...or is that just in my head

SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
They interviewed Scott Bakula about it...and he said he was against having a gay man aboard the Enterprise... however he would be open to have a lesbian character aboard.
A source on this would be nice. I do believe that most heterosexual men would want a gay female character rather than a gay male (personally I've never understood the fixation some straight men have about lesbians, but that's another issue entirely). I do remember hearing rumours, back in the day, saying that Seven would experiment with her sexuality and am pretty shocked that never actually happened.

SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
I think that Bakula was only concerned for the health of the series, and was afraid that a gay man aboard just might cause a few viewers to stop watching the series.
If he was worried about that, why didn't he go and stop the writers from giving him big dramatic speeches (thanks to him I will never be able to enjoy gazelles ever again!), or have them rework most of the S1/2 scripts so that they weren't so limp and lifeless.

Anyways, back on point. Unless Deltan pheromones have mind altering capabilities then no, a gay man/woman wouldn't sleep with a Deltan woman/man willingly.
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Old October 12 2013, 07:30 AM   #59
Tiberius
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
SpaceLover65 wrote: View Post
Perhaps they've found a cure in the future.
Well that's a pretty serious loaded statement . Let's assume though that it is impossible to "cure" a fundamental part of a person's being (they still have baldness by the 24th century) and move on from there.
If you mean they can change part of a person's brain so that they are no longer homosexual, I will admit that it may actually be possible, but the question we must ask is... WHY?

After all, when Jadzia was going after Lenara, no one at all was concerned that it was two women. People in trek don't seem to see homosexuality as a problem. They seem to view homosexuality much the same way that we view left-handedness - something that was stupidly worried about in the past but is really no big deal. Or a deal at all. So for the people of the 24th century to work to change people so they aren't gay makes about as much sense as people in our society working to cure left-handedness.
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Old October 12 2013, 07:43 AM   #60
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

I'm not sure I buy there being a "gay gene." By the very nature of homosexuality, wouldn't it have bred itself out by now if there was?

I still think it comes down to choice and that's all it is. I'm pretty sure there isn't a gene that makes me find brunettes more attractive than blondes. Let people live their lives as they choose. Trying to explain personal lifestyle choices with science is... silly.
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