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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 3 2013, 04:12 PM   #46
trevanian
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Going by McCoy's trial statements about being desperate to save him for the sake of peace, it is EASY for me to believe McCoy was genuinely panicked ... it seems out of character compared to how he was when treating the horta (and he SURE didn't understand that character's physiology to any detailed degree), but there wasn't quite as much at stake (well, preventing genocide is pretty big too, come to think of it ... )

The series-era McCoy was cooler under pressure (and for me, the most admirable character, because he stood with his friends in really bad circumstances even though he clearly did not have the resources to defend himself as they did -- something that they got seriously right in STAR TREK 5 when he faces down 'God' after seeing the punishments meted out to K & S.)

But the movie era McCoy, while not having an EMPATH moment or anything quite as good as his cell conversation with Spock in BREAD & CIRCUSES, is really deep. You have him talking to unconscious Spock in SFS and all the levels are peeled back there, indicating some serious level of life fatigue.

I wouldn't call McCoy's TUC character assassination ... not like it is for Kirk and (to some degree) Spock. I think Shatner's mannerism (cut by Meyer) during the 'let them die' speech would have helped preserve real Kirk to a degree, but the movie is more of an agenda with the characters bent and twisted a little to fit that agenda.

It works, but I kinda don't like that it works. Sort of how I feel about the Valeris forced meld, in fact.
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Old April 3 2013, 07:08 PM   #47
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Well, there's also the fact that McCoy's older in TUC, and as noted, there's more at stake than usual. It's possible a TOS-aged McCoy would have handled it otherwise.
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Old October 10 2013, 07:23 AM   #48
Leto_II
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
And FWIW, this film ignores "Yesterday's Enterprise", which had previously established that the event leading to peace with the Klingons was the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise-C 20 years prior to The Next Generation. It prevented a war which the Federation would have lost. Compare with the Praxis explosion crippling the Empire, which had no choice but to sue for peace.
Not really, re: the film ignoring "Yesterday's Enterprise."

Remember that the episode never explicitly mentions that the Narendra III incident was ever "the only" significant event which led to peace with the Klingon Empire; it was merely the most recent such one by the timeframe of TNG.

Such a peace process would, by its very nature, have been a long, protracted one, drawn out across a number of decades before reaching the state of affairs we first witness in "Encounter at Farpoint," and wouldn't have occurred instantly overnight, regardless of how significant either events were in isolation from one another.

The Khitomer peace conference was a huge, unprecedented step in cementing that process, as was, ironically, Narendra III six decades later, but only both taken together could have brought about the political situation finally experienced by both powers in the era of the Enterprise-D.


King Daniel wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote:
some handwave explaination of Kirk's sudden racism (like, say, Peter's ship is ambushed and he's killed leaving Kirk with no family at all) etc.
It's been a long time since I've read it, but I think in the novel Chang's Bird of Prey had been attacking Federation or civilian outposts basically before the movie starts. Carol Marcus was on one them and Kirk goes and visits her in the hospital afterwards which sort of reopens the David wound. I think at the end of the novel he goes back to her and has a different outlook as she's making her recovery. I have no idea if any of that was ever intended to be part of the script or if it was an invention of the author.
It came from the author, J.M. Dillard, who more often than not came up with some very interesting offscreen backstory material for the films she was novelizing, including additional material on General Chang's Bird-of-Prey, its test-run operations prior to the Praxis explosion, and what happened with Carol Marcus on the UFP colony world selected as a weapons-test target by Chang and his group.

It certainly adds plausibility to the whole notion that Kirk would suddenly harbor virulent feelings towards the Klingon race, but there's also another TOS novel, In the Name of Honor by Dayton Ward (set not long after the events of The Final Frontier) which truly sets the stage for Kirk's abrupt change of political opinion in the sixth film.

Among other things, it depicts
and is simply a must-read in its own right.
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Last edited by Leto_II; October 10 2013 at 07:38 AM.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:00 AM   #49
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Isn't everyone being a bit tough on McCoy?

Aren't there like 100s of different species in the Federation?

I'd expect him to concentrate on knowing their anatomy before that of an enemy.

He's only human. I'd expect the EMH to know it and Bashir but Crusher and McCoy not to be an expert on everything. Crusher should know it because she's got a Klingon as crew.

Even your local vet would not be able to say fix an elephant without consulting an expert or looking up some books. Its not something he or she is ever likely to encounter in a general practice.
Its ridiculous that McCoy doesn't know much about Vulcan physiology though but thats probably got a lot to do with Vulcan's being so secretive about things.

I'm a computer programmer but it would be like sending me a job and telling me to fix a computer that I had no experience in. I can't know every computer system and language in the world. Thats why I laugh to myself when Spock or Scott or Geordi come across alien technology and are experts in it straight away
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Old October 11 2013, 05:51 AM   #50
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
. . .Thats why I laugh to myself when Spock or Scott or Geordi come across alien technology and are experts in it straight away
Yeah, it's never anything where they come across a strange alien ship or alien control system and...

LaForge: This looks like the primary interphase modulator here.

*click*

Computer Voice: Self-destruct activated. Detonation in 5 seconds.
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Old October 11 2013, 06:13 PM   #51
grendelsbayne
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

I've never had any problem with Chang's explanation: Age combined with drink.

He was three months away from retirement suddenly and very unexpectedly thrown into a very high stakes mission for which he was not properly prepared, and after a night of heavy drinking finds himself trying to save a man's life without knowing exactly what is necessary to save him in the first place (again, as has been stated, there's no particular reason to believe anyone in the entire Federation would have the necessary knowledge to save Gorkon's life).

I also don't see much canon issue with Kirk seriously mistrusting Klingons (really, I find the 'racist' label somewhat overstated even within the story of TUC), or with Spock being willing to force someone to answer questions.

I understand why some would've liked the Valeris character to have actually been Saavik (I always thought this was simply because the actress wasn't available, or is that not the case?), but I don't see any reason to call Spock's reaction to her out of character. Just because we never saw Valeris before doesn't mean Spock couldn't have a very signicant relationship with her.
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Old October 11 2013, 07:20 PM   #52
ChowdaHead
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
I'm watching The Undiscovered Country again and it just strikes me as out of character for McCoy after Klingon Chancellor Gorkon is shot and McCoy is working on him and says:

"Jim, I don't even know his anatomy."

To me, that's not like McCoy at all. I would have thought Bones would have been able to pull a rabbit out of his hat as usual and for him not to be ready for alien visitors and be ready to treat anything from a scraped knee (do Klingons have knees?) to an allergic reaction to the food is just strange. Did Starfleet send them out unprepared? Was McCoy slacking as he got towards retirement? Was McCoy bigoted? Or was McCoy not prepared for Kirk to even ask the Klingons to dinner and never expected to have to treat one?

Is that odd to anyone else?
not odd to me at all. wouldnt you be in some sort of a shock after realizing youre being set up. your ship just fired on the klingons that you just had over for dinner, and you have no proof at all that you arent the culprit. in fact, everything points to you. he beams aboard the Kronos 1, sees death EVERYWHERE, and the chancellor is on the verge of passing away! so, after offering to help the poor guy, he realizes his anatomy is not what he is used to opperating on. he works for Starfleet. his job is to repair the human body, and any other species on board his ship. anything else is secondary. also, its not like he has had much practice time with the klingon anatomy. they are after all, up to that time, well known enemies.
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Old October 11 2013, 08:29 PM   #53
Chrisisall
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

^^^ These two posts!
Well said, guys.
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Old October 12 2013, 03:08 AM   #54
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Chrisisall...is that..is that you?
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Old October 12 2013, 03:33 AM   #55
Chrisisall
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Chrisisall...is that..is that you?
Holy crap! You're here too?
With all that Eagle build stuff I never realized you were a Trek fan!
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Old October 12 2013, 04:10 AM   #56
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Chrisisall wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Chrisisall...is that..is that you?
Holy crap! You're here too?
With all that Eagle build stuff I never realized you were a Trek fan!
Oh yeah! For lack of a better term, it's a first love!

I'm new as of about a week ago!
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Old October 12 2013, 04:15 AM   #57
Chrisisall
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Oh yeah! For lack of a better term, it's a first love!
Well, TUC is a Love of mine- I love all the original cast Trek movies (some more than others), but TUC just floors me every time. What a way to go out.
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Old October 12 2013, 04:22 AM   #58
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Chrisisall wrote: View Post
Well, TUC is a Love of mine- I love all the original cast Trek movies (some more than others), but TUC just floors me every time. What a way to go out.
To be honest, I only think I saw it once! I know..I should be flogged for that!

I definitely need to check it out again.
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Old October 12 2013, 04:29 AM   #59
Chrisisall
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I definitely need to check it out again.
Just go to the fridge or the bathroom during the Klingon translation scene,. Rien?
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Old October 12 2013, 06:15 AM   #60
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

trevanian wrote: View Post
The series-era McCoy was cooler under pressure (and for me, the most admirable character, because he stood with his friends in really bad circumstances even though he clearly did not have the resources to defend himself as they did -- something that they got seriously right in STAR TREK 5 when he faces down 'God' after seeing the punishments meted out to K & S.)
Truer words were never spoken!

Even in Space Seed, with McCoy standing up to Khan (with a knife at his throat, no less!), "Well, either choke me or cut my throat, make up your mind!" , and "It would be most effective if you cut the carotid artery, just under the left ear." He had to be the bravest of the cast in many ways.

If skinny little me is ever confronted with such danger, I hope to be able to channel McCoy!
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