RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,163
Posts: 5,402,685
Members: 24,751
Currently online: 486
Newest member: kaklina

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

View Poll Results: Best tactician?
Kirk 31 26.72%
Picard 11 9.48%
Sisko 63 54.31%
Janeway 11 9.48%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 9 2013, 01:17 AM   #46
garaks the best
Lieutenant
 
garaks the best's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Sisko is my pick.
garaks the best is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 05:50 PM   #47
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
FPAlpha wrote: View Post
As has been said Riker is overlooked.. he's easily one of the best officers Starfleet has and only recently got his own ship. He's very smart, quick wits and he rarely plays by the book and likes to improvise (to great success). That makes him a brilliant tactician and given a bit more time will easily fill the shoes of Picard and maybe make his own impression on Starfleet.
Agreed. I would have voted for Riker.

Out of the current list my vote went to Kirk, with Sisko as a close second.
TNG 'Rascals' Riker is a good tactician?

I would pick Archer. With an inferior ship, he outmatched klingons at least thrice, he found the solution to the xindi crisis, etc.

Kirk's achievements were far too often based on luck - because the writer said so (for example, star trek 11; TWOK Khan unable to understand space has 3 dimensions). And, in TWOK, he made a 'Rascals' worthy mistake - more than large enough to eliminate him from the competition.
Picard - beyond the Picard maneuver, he has little to show for; only the basics. A one trick pony does not a good tactician make.
Sisko mastered the fundamentals - but that's it. His achievements were based on the fire-power of his ship, not his tactics.
Janeway had technobabble and not much else.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; October 11 2013 at 06:03 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 05:57 PM   #48
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Don't diss Riker in Rascals. Those Ferengi were so cunning it took a group of terrible children to beat them!
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 10:26 PM   #49
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Every captain has 'bad tactics' moments due to bad writing.

But Archer's solution to the Xindi problem was pretty much 'Make the Xindi feel morally awful about it'. His success in the Xindi conflict was a Diplomatic success, and an occasional fist-fight win.

The only real clever tactical moment I attribute to Archer was when he got the cult leader to execute him using the transporter.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11 2013, 11:32 PM   #50
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

And outsmarting klingons by clever tactics whenever the situation required, etc.
About the xindi crisis: Archer achieved a diplomatic/strategic success of that calibre, and he tricked Degra, gained access to the wormhole that lead to Degra by creative tactics, chose to teleport inside the xindi weapon, etc.

And not a single instance of tactical incompetence as uncompromising as Rascals or The wrath of Khan in all of Enterprise.
By comparison to Archer, Kirk and Riker were depicted as tactical ignoramuses.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 12:57 AM   #51
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Kirk's "bad tactics" moment in TWOK was not bad writing, IMO. It was part of the theme of the film: he was a guy who'd been out of the game for a long time at that point who, having successfully flown by the seat of his pants and gutted out the perils of overconfidence as a younger man, had to come face to face with the reality as a middle-aged man that you can't get away with that forever. It was probably some of the best work either Shatner or the writers ever did with that character.

Kirk is most certainly not "portrayed as a tactical ignoramus" prior to that. His tactical competence in "Balance of Terror" is better sold and flows more naturally from the script and the events than much of anything we see with later Captains, Archer included. You could tell that script was written by someone who understood and had probably experienced the naval warfare for which the episode's space warfare functioned as analogy.

Archer can be argued to have spent a lot of time winning by writers' contrivance (admittedly I can't speak to much of the Xindi arc -- the show had mostly lost me by then); the same was frequently true of Janeway and her confrontations with the Nerf Borg and the absurd Species 8472, and I do note that the biggest threat she really faced (the mad Krenim Annorax and his chrono-weaponry) she had to resort to a suicide attack to defeat.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:13 AM   #52
Delta Vega
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: The Great Barrier
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Archer


Just for the hell of it
Delta Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:18 AM   #53
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Scout101 wrote: View Post
On the other hand, Sisko also lost his ship. Picard as well (Stargazer, E-D doesn't count, he wasn't aboard). Janeway and Archer arrived at the end of the series with the original ships, and Kirk only lost his because he had a crew of 5 and lost the automation. Points off for Sisko and Picard there.
Not sure I agree with your reasoning here. You're saying that Sisko's to blame for losing his ship to a direct hit from a weapon that the Federation wasn't even aware of is his fault, but it's not Kirk's fault his chief engineer didn't have enough common sense to prepare the ship for combat? And bear in mind that it was Kirk's choice to take only five people aboard Enterprise. Plot device or no, what he did was exceptionally risky and worked out only because he was up against commander who managed to be stupider than he was.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:22 AM   #54
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

BigJake wrote: View Post
It was part of the theme of the film: he was a guy who'd been out of the game for a long time at that point who, having successfully flown by the seat of his pants and gutted out the perils of overconfidence as a younger man, had to come face to face with the reality as a middle-aged man that you can't get away with that forever.
Kirk's leadership by arrogance approach is shown throughout the films. He finally stops in TUC because the stakes are extremely high (and his arrest prevents him from commanding the Enterprise until Spock is able to piece together the facts surrounding Gorkon's death).

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:25 AM   #55
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Delta Vega wrote: View Post
Archer


Just for the hell of it
Apparently this was also why he was made captain.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:35 AM   #56
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Sran wrote: View Post
Kirk's leadership by arrogance approach is shown throughout the films.
Exactly why they should have stopped with TWOK, I always thought. The later films were more about trying to cash in on sentimentality than about convincingly developing the characters or setting. (And it would have shown far more guts to kill Spock and leave him dead. Nimoy could still have made his cameo cheddar in flashbacks and alternate reality episodes.)
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:36 AM   #57
Captain Kathryn
Commodore
 
Captain Kathryn's Avatar
 
Location: In Star Trek / Doctor Who fantasy land aka New Jersey
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Captain Kathryn
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Have to say Janeway because she was in the middle of nowhere with no support from Starfleet whatsoever.

Sisko is my close second. Very close.
__________________
Assimilate more Janeway...among other stuff! Captain Kathryn's Tumblr
Captain Kathryn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12 2013, 01:41 AM   #58
Pondwater
Commodore
 
Pondwater's Avatar
 
Location: In Left Field.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Kirk prime.
__________________
That will make your bull run.
Pondwater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2013, 02:00 AM   #59
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

BigJake wrote: View Post
Kirk's "bad tactics" moment in TWOK was not bad writing, IMO. It was part of the theme of the film: he was a guy who'd been out of the game for a long time at that point who, having successfully flown by the seat of his pants and gutted out the perils of overconfidence as a younger man, had to come face to face with the reality as a middle-aged man that you can't get away with that forever. It was probably some of the best work either Shatner or the writers ever did with that character.
A person with medium IQ, with no experience and training whatsoever would not have made the mistake Kirk made in TWOK.
Kirk was utterly PATHETIC. A tactical ignoramus.

Kirk is most certainly not "portrayed as a tactical ignoramus" prior to that. His tactical competence in "Balance of Terror" is better sold and flows more naturally from the script and the events than much of anything we see with later Captains, Archer included. You could tell that script was written by someone who understood and had probably experienced the naval warfare for which the episode's space warfare functioned as analogy.
That would be 'by someone who watched 'The enemy below''. The episode is practically a copy thereof.
And there are quite a few other episodes where Kirk won because he got lucky. The kind of luck that can make one win the lottery.

Archer was written as depending far less on luck than Kirk.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14 2013, 02:52 AM   #60
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Best tactician? Kirk,Picard, Sisko or Janeway?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
That would be 'by someone who watched 'The enemy below''.
Even if true: fact remains the ep is still a more convincing tactical scenario than we see in most of Trek.

And there are quite a few other episodes where Kirk won because he got lucky.
No argument there. Also, however, true of most of the Trek Captains: particularly if we count "encountering improbably Nerfed enemies" as "luck" in the cases of Voyager and Enterprise.

Archer was written as depending far less on luck than Kirk.
Since the writing in general in Archer's show was nonsensical, though, it's kind of apples to oranges.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
janeway, kirk

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.