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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 9 2013, 03:19 AM   #91
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
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Fine Enterprise is the only ship in the sector--why the Enterprise is hanging around on a training cruise in a sector that has both a top secret research lab and Kirk's old girlfriend, who knows, but it is. Starfleet should have figured out something was up and sent out an extra ship or two to back up the Enterprise. "Could be nothing, garbled communications"...from your top secret research lab that's building a super torpedo that reformats planets. I think that's worth sending a cruiser or two to back up the outdated training ship full of cadets.
Actually, Regula-1 was a civilian laboratory, and there was nothing "top secret" about it. The work they were doing there was a secret, but only because Carol Marcus didn't tell anyone but Starfleet what they were up to (in a request for funding) and Starfleet didn't go blabbing it to everyone willy-nilly.

It would be like getting an angry phone from call an antarctic research base about somebody messing around with their polywell experiment; the commander who gets the job of investigating it winds up using a google search to figure out what a "polywell" actually is.

Kirk defies all common sense, even after a junior officer tells him they should raise shields; to top it off Spock calls her down on it. The Enterprise crippled, a lot of the TRAINEE crew wounded, power failing, Kirk decides to continue on to Regula instead--oh I don't know--hauling ass to a starbase or getting out of jamming range and getting a squadron chasing down Khan.
That's his style, dude. He did the same thing against Nero. And it worked -- both times.
Regula - Again, makes no sense. Starfleet knows what they're building, know what it could do, send a trainee ship with no back up. It's more akin to the someone at the Manhattan Project calling Washington DC with a garbled call about someone demanding they hand over their research and Washington shrugging it off as a bad phone line.
Actually, it's more like the lead researcher at CERN leaving an angry/garbled message on his ex-wife's answering machine and the Navy deciding to send somebody to see if he's okay.

Remember, Genesis was INTENDED for peaceful purposes and technically it isn't even Starfleet property.

Fine Enterprise is the only ship in the sector, but you send another cruiser or two to back up and make sure your plantary WMD is safe.
You're right, they should have contacted the next nearest ship in the sector and sent it over to help Enterprise in case the situation got out of hand.

What WAS the next nearest starship, by the way?

And we're still have no reason for Kirk to be cruising around Carol's neighborhood.
I thought they were cruising around the Sol system and Regula just happened to be relatively close to Earth.
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Old October 11 2013, 01:14 PM   #92
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That's his style, dude. He did the same thing against Nero. And it worked -- both times.
So, his 'style' is to get lucky contrary to common sense, simply because the writers said do.
Talk about a badly written character.
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Old October 11 2013, 02:21 PM   #93
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That's his style, dude. He did the same thing against Nero. And it worked -- both times.
So, his 'style' is to get lucky contrary to common sense, simply because the writers said do.
Talk about a badly written character.
So, Jim Kirk throughout the course of Trek lore in a nutshell?
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Old October 11 2013, 03:05 PM   #94
Nerys Myk
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Yeah, the last chance move that depends on luck is a Trek staple. Even Spock pulled that one in Galileo Seven. (And it was kind of the theme of the episode)
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Old October 11 2013, 11:24 PM   #95
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

The filmmakers treating Khan like he was some great Joker-tier antagonist really did feel out of place. The closest Trek ever had a recurring nemesis was with Gul Dukat, and that was for DS9. It sort of the same thing with Darth Vader starting off as a really cool henchman with only one movie where he was really in charge (Empire), but for after awhile the perception of him being the biggest baddest thing in the galaxy exploded, with the prequels going by that sentiment rather than having Anakin's story be something of a tragic subplot.
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Old October 11 2013, 11:33 PM   #96
Nerys Myk
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The filmmakers treating Khan like he was some great Joker-tier antagonist really did feel out of place. The closest Trek ever had a recurring nemesis was with Gul Dukat, and that was for DS9. It sort of the same thing with Darth Vader starting off as a really cool henchman with only one movie where he was really in charge (Empire), but for after awhile the perception of him being the biggest baddest thing in the galaxy exploded, with the prequels going by that sentiment rather than having Anakin's story be something of a tragic subplot.
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
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Old October 11 2013, 11:40 PM   #97
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The filmmakers treating Khan like he was some great Joker-tier antagonist really did feel out of place. The closest Trek ever had a recurring nemesis was with Gul Dukat, and that was for DS9. It sort of the same thing with Darth Vader starting off as a really cool henchman with only one movie where he was really in charge (Empire), but for after awhile the perception of him being the biggest baddest thing in the galaxy exploded, with the prequels going by that sentiment rather than having Anakin's story be something of a tragic subplot.
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
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Old October 12 2013, 12:07 AM   #98
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The filmmakers treating Khan like he was some great Joker-tier antagonist really did feel out of place. The closest Trek ever had a recurring nemesis was with Gul Dukat, and that was for DS9. It sort of the same thing with Darth Vader starting off as a really cool henchman with only one movie where he was really in charge (Empire), but for after awhile the perception of him being the biggest baddest thing in the galaxy exploded, with the prequels going by that sentiment rather than having Anakin's story be something of a tragic subplot.
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
It was done long before STID. The fandom amped up Khan's rep over the years purely based on TWOK.
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Old October 12 2013, 01:00 AM   #99
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

I am with Kirk on this one, I am laughing at the superior intellect!

Someone will say: "But he - yada yada yada." No. Kirk simply "got caught with his britches down." Had Kirk been on his game from the start Khan would have been ashes far earlier than he did.[/nerd]
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Old October 12 2013, 02:05 AM   #100
Nerys Myk
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The filmmakers treating Khan like he was some great Joker-tier antagonist really did feel out of place. The closest Trek ever had a recurring nemesis was with Gul Dukat, and that was for DS9. It sort of the same thing with Darth Vader starting off as a really cool henchman with only one movie where he was really in charge (Empire), but for after awhile the perception of him being the biggest baddest thing in the galaxy exploded, with the prequels going by that sentiment rather than having Anakin's story be something of a tragic subplot.
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
Dukat's only seems "truer" because of the serial nature of DS9. The ones I mentioned are true recurring nemesis as well. Species like the Klingon, Borg and Romulans count too, even though they aren't individual characters.

Boba Fett is a better candidate of a character taking off in popularity, who really does nothing. He's pretty much the poster child for that. Vader's popularity might be why he becomes Luke's father in Empire and tries to take over in Jedi. He's a cool visual, which is why he's bigger than the Death Star on the posters. He's also the guy who captures Leia and kills Ben. So I think he's a little bit more than a henchman. He's probably as important as Tarkin to the film's villainy.

STID calls Khan the "baddest villain" because he's the villain in STID. They aren't going to have Spock say, "Yeah, he's bad news. But there's this other guy who's worse. Lucky you're not facing him."
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Old October 12 2013, 02:52 AM   #101
austen_pierce
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
Dukat's only seems "truer" because of the serial nature of DS9. The ones I mentioned are true recurring nemesis as well. Species like the Klingon, Borg and Romulans count too, even though they aren't individual characters.

Boba Fett is a better candidate of a character taking off in popularity, who really does nothing. He's pretty much the poster child for that. Vader's popularity might be why he becomes Luke's father in Empire and tries to take over in Jedi. He's a cool visual, which is why he's bigger than the Death Star on the posters. He's also the guy who captures Leia and kills Ben. So I think he's a little bit more than a henchman. He's probably as important as Tarkin to the film's villainy.

STID calls Khan the "baddest villain" because he's the villain in STID. They aren't going to have Spock say, "Yeah, he's bad news. But there's this other guy who's worse. Lucky you're not facing him."

Definitely... dramatic effect.
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Old October 12 2013, 07:26 AM   #102
MakeshiftPython
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
It was done long before STID. The fandom amped up Khan's rep over the years purely based on TWOK.
Yes, and the franchise had never emphasized on that until now with STID.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
The public at large wouldn't know Gul Dukat from a seagull.

Unlike Vader, Khan was never a henchman. He was the bad guy in two previous Trek installments.

Harry Mudd appeared in three Treks. Q in several episodes over three different series.
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
Dukat's only seems "truer" because of the serial nature of DS9. The ones I mentioned are true recurring nemesis as well. Species like the Klingon, Borg and Romulans count too, even though they aren't individual characters.
I was pretty much going by individual characters. I still think Dukat is a legitimate case. It's too bad Tomalak wasn't used that much after a few episodes in TNG. Would have been nice to see him pop in more often, or at least meet the crew in person.

STID calls Khan the "baddest villain" because he's the villain in STID. They aren't going to have Spock say, "Yeah, he's bad news. But there's this other guy who's worse. Lucky you're not facing him."
I would have said something along the lines "one of the most dangerous adversaries I ever encountered", but that's just me. Actually, scratch that, I would have never included the Spock Prime phone call at all.
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Old October 12 2013, 05:11 PM   #103
Nerys Myk
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
You missed my point. I only brought up Dukat because he was the closest thing there was to a true recurring nemesis, which has nothing to do with how popular he is. My point about Vader is that he became over emphasized among fandom as the baddest villain, something that STID has done with Khan's importance.
It was done long before STID. The fandom amped up Khan's rep over the years purely based on TWOK.
Yes, and the franchise had never emphasized on that until now with STID.
"The Franchise" didn't spend a lot of time in the 23rd Century. There weren't a lot of opportunities for characters from that time to ramble on about how dangerous Khan was. Still on the litside they've managed a few books and comics about Khan. And even in the 24th Century, the repercussions of Khan and his brethren were being felt.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Dukat's only seems "truer" because of the serial nature of DS9. The ones I mentioned are true recurring nemesis as well. Species like the Klingon, Borg and Romulans count too, even though they aren't individual characters.
I was pretty much going by individual characters. I still think Dukat is a legitimate case. It's too bad Tomalak wasn't used that much after a few episodes in TNG. Would have been nice to see him pop in more often, or at least meet the crew in person.
Yeah, he is. Just not the only one.

STID calls Khan the "baddest villain" because he's the villain in STID. They aren't going to have Spock say, "Yeah, he's bad news. But there's this other guy who's worse. Lucky you're not facing him."
I would have said something along the lines "one of the most dangerous adversaries I ever encountered", but that's just me. Actually, scratch that, I would have never included the Spock Prime phone call at all.
"One of the most" still undercuts Khan being the big bad in STID.
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Old October 12 2013, 05:20 PM   #104
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

You know what would we needed: Prime Spock saying to kill Khan. What after the whole "The most dangerous line..." have him look at Nu-Spock, stone cold expression, as the info sinks in to the Nu-Crew, no other questions, Prime-Spock says "If you value your lives, you must kill him."
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Old October 12 2013, 10:36 PM   #105
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Re: Khan the most dangerous enemy of the original crew?

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
STID calls Khan the "baddest villain" because he's the villain in STID. They aren't going to have Spock say, "Yeah, he's bad news. But there's this other guy who's worse. Lucky you're not facing him."
I would have said something along the lines "one of the most dangerous adversaries I ever encountered", but that's just me. Actually, scratch that, I would have never included the Spock Prime phone call at all.
"One of the most" still undercuts Khan being the big bad in STID.
How so? If I say 'Pizza is one of my absolute favorite foods', it doesn't mean I love donuts any less. Something doesn't have to be the best/worst thing in the universe to be taken seriously.
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