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Old October 10 2013, 01:53 PM   #16
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
^ Where was that established, like I said I'm a little rusty on my TMP.
Yeah, they have super strong pheromones. It was explained in detail in GR's Star Trek The Motion Picture novel. You could probably read about it on Memory Alpha as well for any other sources.
Ah ok. Thank you.
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Old October 10 2013, 02:01 PM   #17
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
They do have pheromones but when they go into space they're given medicine to suppress them and take the oath of celibacy while off world.
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
^ Where was that established, like I said I'm a little rusty on my TMP.
Although pheromones are not mentioned, Ilia does deliver the line "My oath of celibacy is on record, Captain" fairly early in the movie. If you jump to approx. 32:00 (theatrical version), you can review the scene in question.
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Old October 10 2013, 02:17 PM   #18
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Am I the only one who finds the idea of pheromones off-putting?

Male, female, gay, straight, Orion, Deltan. I don't like the idea of being overwhelmingly attracted to someone because of the way they smell. Its like being drugged to have sex with someone. I don't find it erotic or sexy at all. Exotic maybe.

Off-putting for a Deltan too I'd imagine. Having people fawning over you because they are too immature sexually to control themselves.
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Old October 10 2013, 02:25 PM   #19
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who finds the idea of pheromones off-putting?

Male, female, gay, straight, Orion, Deltan. I don't like the idea of being overwhelmingly attracted to someone because of the way they smell. Its like being drugged to have sex with someone. I don't find it erotic or sexy at all. Exotic maybe.

Off-putting for a Deltan too I'd imagine. Having people fawning over you because they are too immature sexually to control themselves.
If it means anything, the most current research suggests that people don't respond to pheromones of someone from the opposite sex if they are attracted to the same same (as opposed to someone attracted to the opposite sex). Pheromones don't simply put someone in the mood.
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Old October 10 2013, 02:37 PM   #20
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Which reminds me to ask a question after having watched STID: At first, it didn't occur to me that this captain could have been Deltan.
He's not. Captain Robau is human.
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Old October 10 2013, 05:03 PM   #21
R. Star
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who finds the idea of pheromones off-putting?

Male, female, gay, straight, Orion, Deltan. I don't like the idea of being overwhelmingly attracted to someone because of the way they smell. Its like being drugged to have sex with someone. I don't find it erotic or sexy at all. Exotic maybe.

Off-putting for a Deltan too I'd imagine. Having people fawning over you because they are too immature sexually to control themselves.
If it means anything, the most current research suggests that people don't respond to pheromones of someone from the opposite sex if they are attracted to the same same (as opposed to someone attracted to the opposite sex). Pheromones don't simply put someone in the mood.
I'd be interested in your source material on that. It's the first I've heard of it.

As for the Orion/Deltan pheromones things, keep in mind this was Roddenberry's era and he wasn't particularly subtle at times.
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Old October 10 2013, 05:27 PM   #22
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

^I can't give you a bibliography of any sort, but it is mentioned in many articles since the 2000s: Gay Men Are Found to Have Different Scent of Attraction.
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Old October 10 2013, 05:47 PM   #23
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

^ The problem with that theory is it doesn't really explain what attracts lesbians and bi-sexuals.
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Old October 10 2013, 05:50 PM   #24
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Melakon wrote: View Post
^ The problem with that theory is it doesn't really explain what attracts lesbians and bi-sexuals.
^It only explains how pheromones* work. Sexuality is obviously much more complex than a single biochemical reaction.

*ETA: I should be precise in saying that this refers only to those pheromones associated with sexual arousal in the brain.

Last edited by Bad Thoughts; October 10 2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:04 PM   #25
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Which reminds me to ask a question after having watched STID: At first, it didn't occur to me that this captain could have been Deltan.

After seeing his female and equally bald-headed counterpart in STID and other "baldies" (no offense) I'm starting to wonder how many Deltans are involved in nuTrek or not.

Bob
According to background info from now-defunct promotional websites, Captain Robau of the USS Kelvin was a human, born in Cuba and raised in the Middle-East.

The bald guy on the bridge in ID is Science Officer 0718, according to actor Joseph Gatt he's a human cyborg linked directly to the Enterprise computer.

The bald woman who takes over navigation from Chekov is named Darwin, but nothing else is known bout her.



I think the only other time we've seen someone definitely intended to be Deltan was the guy with the awful conehead skullcap on the Excelsior in STIII, who is identified as such in the script.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:35 PM   #26
R. Star
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
^I can't give you a bibliography of any sort, but it is mentioned in many articles since the 2000s: Gay Men Are Found to Have Different Scent of Attraction.
Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
^ The problem with that theory is it doesn't really explain what attracts lesbians and bi-sexuals.
^It only explains how pheromones* work. Sexuality is obviously much more complex than a single biochemical reaction.

*ETA: I should be precise in saying that this refers only to those pheromones associated with sexual arousal in the brain.
Interesting read. Not conclusive evidence it seems, but interesting nonetheless. Certainly back in the 60's/70's Gene didn't know this much and even if he had, Trek's always taken a "magic" approach to science so it might not have changed anyways.

I still have to go with in the end that sexuality is a choice. Either we're sentient beings or we're not and while we may have certain instincts, the conscious mind prevails over that.

Heck, the article itself seems to suggest that given it said the part of the nose that's receptive to pheromones is dormant and I wonder if that's an evolutionary side effect as the species got more intelligent.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:49 PM   #27
Melakon
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

I think we still have some sort of animal instincts that sometimes assert themselves. Particularly during rainy seasons, as many people prefer to stay indoors rather than go outside. I figure it's the old instinctual patterns of when our prehistoric ancestors were huddling in caves.
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Old October 10 2013, 07:21 PM   #28
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Interesting read. Not conclusive evidence it seems, but interesting nonetheless. Certainly back in the 60's/70's Gene didn't know this much and even if he had, Trek's always taken a "magic" approach to science so it might not have changed anyways.
If such a device is used in future episodes or films, I believe that the writers would be justly taken to task if they failed to explain how "super-pheromones" work with sexual orientation, but also between species. There's no reason to believe that someone would become sexually intoxicated by another species pheromones.


GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I still have to go with in the end that sexuality is a choice. Either we're sentient beings or we're not and while we may have certain instincts, the conscious mind prevails over that.

Heck, the article itself seems to suggest that given it said the part of the nose that's receptive to pheromones is dormant and I wonder if that's an evolutionary side effect as the species got more intelligent.
Which is why I tend to separate sexual orientation and sexual identity. As much as there may a natural attraction to one gender or another (or lack thereof), many individuals will still find pleasure with someone opposite of that orientation. There is much room for sexual creativity above and beyond orientation, and I think that in-universe it would be the best explanation for why Riker felt so strongly about Soren.
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Old October 10 2013, 08:08 PM   #29
R. Star
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post
GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Interesting read. Not conclusive evidence it seems, but interesting nonetheless. Certainly back in the 60's/70's Gene didn't know this much and even if he had, Trek's always taken a "magic" approach to science so it might not have changed anyways.
If such a device is used in future episodes or films, I believe that the writers would be justly taken to task if they failed to explain how "super-pheromones" work with sexual orientation, but also between species. There's no reason to believe that someone would become sexually intoxicated by another species pheromones.


GoRe Star wrote: View Post
I still have to go with in the end that sexuality is a choice. Either we're sentient beings or we're not and while we may have certain instincts, the conscious mind prevails over that.

Heck, the article itself seems to suggest that given it said the part of the nose that's receptive to pheromones is dormant and I wonder if that's an evolutionary side effect as the species got more intelligent.
Which is why I tend to separate sexual orientation and sexual identity. As much as there may a natural attraction to one gender or another (or lack thereof), many individuals will still find pleasure with someone opposite of that orientation. There is much room for sexual creativity above and beyond orientation, and I think that in-universe it would be the best explanation for why Riker felt so strongly about Soren.
Well all the races in Trek seem to be able to interbreed. Human/Vulcans, Trill/Klingons, Human/Trill, Bajoran/Cardassian, Human/Klingon, Human/Romulan and so forth. So by the logic presented -in the Trek universe- I guess I could see pheromones working cross-racially since they're all apparently genetically compatible.

It's an interesting point you make about sexual identity vs orientation. I'm not sure I distinguish completely between the two, at the very least they seem to overlap to me. Though you make a good point about the pleasure part of it being possible with someone that doesn't conform to either. Riker definitely is a good point, though Soren(before they "corrected" her) just gave the vibe that she saw a penis for the first time and was into that. If that episode was supposed to be about the rights of homosexuals they kinda misaligned the message.

But really if we ever do get into space and are interacting with completely alien species, that is gonna screw with people's sexual identifications(pardon the pun). "Not all species keep their genitals in the same place, Captain." Kim hinted at this too with his girlfriend from the Disease just describing it as "different." I got the hint that the parts didn't exactly line up traditionally there.
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Old October 10 2013, 10:04 PM   #30
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Homosexuals and Deltans

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who finds the idea of pheromones off-putting?

Male, female, gay, straight, Orion, Deltan. I don't like the idea of being overwhelmingly attracted to someone because of the way they smell. Its like being drugged to have sex with someone. I don't find it erotic or sexy at all. Exotic maybe.

Off-putting for a Deltan too I'd imagine. Having people fawning over you because they are too immature sexually to control themselves.
Personally I do too and for the Deltans it just doesn't fit with them. For a race where sex is an integral part of their society they don't need pheromones to attract potential mates, for them talking about who stuck what in where the night before would be like humans discussing the weather, and since they don't seem to have sex with other races they see as being too inferior for their intercourse then they have no need for a biology that allows them to attract other species.

Anytime I use Deltans I have never given them super-pheromones, as it just seems unnecessary. I find the Oath a far more interesting angle on their culture, and what they'd had to do to "fit it" with the rest of the galaxy.
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