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Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

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Old October 10 2013, 12:35 PM   #46
Gov Kodos
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Enterprise might have some immunity to such a syndrome.
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Old October 10 2013, 03:48 PM   #47
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
A jello monster trying to eat the Enterprise. We can call that episode eat or be eaten.
It has to be lime.
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Old October 10 2013, 04:17 PM   #48
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Gov Karnstein wrote: View Post
Enterprise might have some immunity to such a syndrome.
One of those panels in the hull slides open, and a really big spoon pops out.
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Old October 10 2013, 11:23 PM   #49
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Gov Karnstein wrote: View Post
Enterprise might have some immunity to such a syndrome.
One of those panels in the hull slides open, and a really big spoon pops out.
I think it was a play on words with the episode The Immunity Syndrome where the Enterprise has no issue flying through protoplasm.
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Old October 12 2013, 08:02 AM   #50
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Because why the heck wouldn't you save them? You'd save an injured dog or an animal species about to go extinct.
From Time and Again

JANEWAY: You have no idea what the consequences might be once you involve yourself.
PARIS: The consequences would have to be better than mass destruction.
JANEWAY: You're not to warn these people. That's an order.
I was gonna post this but as I read on I see you already did that. Thanks, I'm totally with Paris on the PD and every time Trek tried presenting Janeway or Picard as those in the right for saying stuff like that I wanted to pull my hair out. Even this little bit makes Janeway look appalling.


JANEWAY: Don't even think about it, Tom. The Prime Directive is clear. We cannot allow our presence to alter this planet's natural course of events.
PARIS: Even if the natural course of events is annihilation?
JANEWAY: Yeah.

I'm wondering if Roddenberry was really the one that cooked up this bullshit in the first place. This is the earliest example but it's not specific to saving civilizations from natural disasters. A line from Data in "The Last Outpost".

DATA: Starfleet has permitted several civilizations to fall. We have at times allowed the strong and violent to overcome the weak.
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Old October 12 2013, 08:09 AM   #51
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
Gov Karnstein wrote: View Post
Enterprise might have some immunity to such a syndrome.
One of those panels in the hull slides open, and a really big spoon pops out.
I think it was a play on words with the episode The Immunity Syndrome where the Enterprise has no issue flying through protoplasm.
Yes, indeed.
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Old October 16 2013, 02:52 AM   #52
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

I think Dear Doctor was one of the worst trek episodes period. Just with the final minutes and utterly bad logic.

They had plenty of conflicts to explore a future prime directive (which I believe is designed solely to keep federation from being entangle in local conflicts and taking sides). Desert Crossing was one such episode in season 1. DD was not applicable imo.

Last edited by jibrilmudo; October 16 2013 at 03:10 AM.
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Old October 16 2013, 11:47 AM   #53
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Jefferies wrote: View Post
I'm currently rewatching Enterprise on blu ray. It's the first time I have seen any episodes since the original broadcast. I was never a great fan of the series but so far it has been a real joy with many episodes being a lot better then I remembered.

One of the few episodes I originally really did like was Dear Doctor and I was truly looking forward to watching it again. But what a surprise I got. It is 24 hours since I watched it and I am now convinced it is the most amoral episode ever conceived on Star Trek.

The episode is quite sneaky about it as it is clad in a very gentle and low key presentation. Everything that is problematic is also saved until the last few minutes. It all comes down to Phlox suddenly throwing an utterly misconceived view of evolution into the debate. He does this out of the blue when the entire episode hasn't had anything to do with evolution in any specific way.

He believes that the Valakians are suffering from a genetic disorder that is inherent to the whole species and will cause their extinction in 200 years. Based on that information everyone is motivated to help in any way possible. Then they encounter the Menk, a distinct humanoid species with less developed intelligence that peacefully co-exists with the Valakians. However, they are unaffected by the disease and according to Phlox's observations are showing signs of emerging intelligence.

So far so good.

Then Phlox suddenly conjures up the notion that the Menk will only get a real chance to "evolve" if the Valakians go extinct. His unwavering conclusion is that the Valakians should be left to their own fate because "evolution" should not be interfered with. No other options are discussed or considered. Thus hundreds of millions of innocent people are left to die.

Now there is one fallacy here that makes Phlox's argument illogical from the outset. Evolution does not have a predetermined outcome. Even with the best possible simulation it remains an inherently random process as mutations occur by chance and natural selection of these mutations is then dependent on random occurrences in the environment (e.g. meteor impact, climate change etc.).

What is disturbing about Dear Doctor is that the writers of the episode have no scientific understanding of evolution but have picked up certain slogans and attitudes about it (e.g. "evolution isn't just a theory") and then used those out of context to create a dramatic turning point in their story.

When Archer challenges Phlox's hypothesis about the Menk Phlox doesn't even respond to that direct challenge. He merely obfuscates by haughtily retorting "evolution isn't just a theory". That's the end of the debate. Case closed. Evolution knows what its doing appears to be their answer.

It's like a horrible caricature of the science vs creationism debate but this time round it's the scientists spouting unfounded dogma.

What really gets to me is how coldly they condemn the Valakians to their fate just because of a belief.

But what get's to me even more is that I didn't realise this when I first watched the episode. I must have bought into their mumbo jumbo. Now 12 years later I'm a practicing physician myself and also hold degrees in biology and other sciences and it is as clear as day what they did was utterly inhumane as well as morally and intellectually bankrupt.
I agree on all points.
Indeed, 'Dear doctor' was discussed on this forum several times; I made my position clear on those occasions, as well.
Of course, several posters were quite vehement on defending Phlox's course of action in the episode; as they are in this thread, I see. Make of this what you will.

Mutai Sho-Rin wrote: View Post
For me, it is an absolutely great episode, specifically because of that moral quandary. When it first aired, I was the ENT Mod and the place went crazy with extreme views both pro and con. I thought the portrayals of Phlox, Archer, hoshi and Cutler were outstanding in capturing the subtlety of the story and I still consider it in my top 5 of ENT.
This view has a rather large problem:
There's nothing subtle about the 'moral quandary'.
Anyone who knows even a little about evolution, anyone who realises that what may or may not happen 1000 years into the future has no bearing on the morality of a choice now can see the episode supported the utterly immoral side and tried to window-dress it as 'moral'.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; October 16 2013 at 12:30 PM.
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Old October 16 2013, 01:34 PM   #54
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
Unless I missed it, was any reason given for the Enterprise being in the ocean as opposed to being in orbit?
Original intent? I'm fairly sure they went with "how cool would a shot of the Enterprise coming out of the water be!" and tailored the story around that rather than thinking about how the best way to accomplish their task would've been.
We don't know what events caused Kirk to make those decisions. To assume there wasn't any reason for what they did is looking to bash something IMO.

As indicated in the movie, maybe the clouds/smoke above the volcano wasn't enough to mask the Enterprise so he made the decsion to hide underwater.

One thing they could have identified in the movie to make things more plausable was why they couldn't use the transporter from orbit. Maybe they did, but I don't recall it.

I enjoyed the opening scenes. Fun to watch and brought General Order #1 into play, etc.
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Last edited by Yanks; October 16 2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old October 16 2013, 06:42 PM   #55
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Looking for something to bash? Even Scotty pointed out how stupid it was. A novel concept but the spaceship could've stayed... in space. The worst the locals would see there is a moving star. You'd still have line of sight directly above the volcano in space for the transporters.

The Enterprise coming out of the ocean shot was just a pure glamor shot and nothing more. It made no sense at all from a storytelling perspective. Take away that silliness and it was a good scene. I particularly liked how Spock logiced himself into breaking the PD... and for once someone got punished for breaking it.
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Old October 16 2013, 08:48 PM   #56
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Just because Scotty thought it was ridiculous doesn't mean there were better options available. Since we didn't witness any discussion resulting in the decision to submerge the ship, we're hardly in a position to judge said decision from an in-universe standpoint.
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Old October 16 2013, 09:05 PM   #57
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Yeah, I can see how the opinion of the Chief Engineer wouldn't be relevant at all in the situation.
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Old October 16 2013, 09:46 PM   #58
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

I'm sure you know that's not what I was saying. I'm sure you also know there were times in TOS when Scotty complained about what the ship was/would be going through and yet everything worked out fine.

It's entirely possible for a situation to be both utterly ridiculous and the best course of action available at the time.
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Old October 16 2013, 10:22 PM   #59
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
Unless I missed it, was any reason given for the Enterprise being in the ocean as opposed to being in orbit?
Original intent? I'm fairly sure they went with "how cool would a shot of the Enterprise coming out of the water be!" and tailored the story around that rather than thinking about how the best way to accomplish their task would've been.
Bingo. It was solely done to look "cool", and therefore, pointless.
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Old October 16 2013, 10:34 PM   #60
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Yeah, I can see how the opinion of the Chief Engineer wouldn't be relevant at all in the situation.
How many times has a Captain ignored the advice of those under him/her about the capabilities of a starship in Star Trek? I'm not talking just about TOS but the entire franchise. It's a staple.

RandyS wrote: View Post

Bingo. It was solely done to look "cool", and therefore, pointless.
I think sometimes people forget that Star Trek is suppose to be entertainment. Do I think the driving force behind the Enterprise being submerged was the cool factor? Absolutely. I drooled when I saw the scene the first time in the theater, absolutely drooled. It was one of the coolest special effects sequences I've ever seen in my thirty-five plus years of going to the movies.
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