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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 10 2013, 07:16 AM   #106
Mutoid
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Re: The Son'a

The Overlord wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
A deleted scene in INS which involved Riker and Troi in the library; Riker says something to the extent that the Son'a came to the Federation for assistance because the planet is in Fed space. So legally the Federation would have jurisdiction over the planet. This could explain the collaborate agreement between the Admiral Doughtery and Ru'afo. The Son'a filed all the legal paperwork and went through the proper channels seeking Federation help. The Federation would've gained technology and the methods to replicate the metaphasic particles of the planet for collaborating with the Son'a.

On the surface it seems legit. The Son'a however neglected to mention that the 600 occupants of the planet were their relatives.
Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation. Except in cases of war/conquered territory, or maybe some sort of special treaty situation, of course.

The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are. To suggest that they would then be perfectly ok with a legal construction giving them 'jurisdiction' over planets that are not already inhabited, because their inhabitants are advanced enough have interstellar relations makes no sense.

Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native, which means Dougherty is conspiring to basically the most massive violation of the prime directive ever shown. In other words, blatantly illegal.
The problem with the Prime Directive Argument is, couldn't the Son'a have used it to keep the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a from kicking the Ba'ku off the planet? If the Son'a are really Ba'ku, why couldn't they have used that as a basis to lay claim to the planet and then keep the Federation out by saying its an internal Ba'ku matter.

It seems like the Son'a could have won by just telling the truth, which makes them pretty ineffective villains.
Yes why bring in the Federation when you could just kidnap the Baku yourself?

And why bring Data and thus 'goody-two-shoes' Picard into it if Dougherty thought he was doing something shady?

My thoughts are that for some technobabble reason the Sona couldnt just kidnap the Baku or couldn't destroy the planet themselves.

And Dougherty probably believed the Sona were on the level and thinking maybe the Baku were a bunch of tree huggers. It was only after the Federation study that Dougherty probably twigged that the Sona were not on the up and up.
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Old October 10 2013, 10:57 AM   #107
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Son'a

The Overlord wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
A deleted scene in INS which involved Riker and Troi in the library; Riker says something to the extent that the Son'a came to the Federation for assistance because the planet is in Fed space. So legally the Federation would have jurisdiction over the planet. This could explain the collaborate agreement between the Admiral Doughtery and Ru'afo. The Son'a filed all the legal paperwork and went through the proper channels seeking Federation help. The Federation would've gained technology and the methods to replicate the metaphasic particles of the planet for collaborating with the Son'a.

On the surface it seems legit. The Son'a however neglected to mention that the 600 occupants of the planet were their relatives.
Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation. Except in cases of war/conquered territory, or maybe some sort of special treaty situation, of course.

The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are. To suggest that they would then be perfectly ok with a legal construction giving them 'jurisdiction' over planets that are not already inhabited, because their inhabitants are advanced enough have interstellar relations makes no sense.

Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native, which means Dougherty is conspiring to basically the most massive violation of the prime directive ever shown. In other words, blatantly illegal.
The problem with the Prime Directive Argument is, couldn't the Son'a have used it to keep the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a from kicking the Ba'ku off the planet? If the Son'a are really Ba'ku, why couldn't they have used that as a basis to lay claim to the planet and then keep the Federation out by saying its an internal Ba'ku matter.

It seems like the Son'a could have won by just telling the truth, which makes them pretty ineffective villains.
Well, since they left the planet for a hundred years, their claim may be a bit weak. Still - it's entirely possible the Federation would decide not to get involved, what with the Dominion war going on at the same time. Maybe the Sona just really didn't understand the Federation very well and were basing their decisions on what they thought the Fed. might do.
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Old October 10 2013, 03:37 PM   #108
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Re: The Son'a

If the Sona were beyond the point of just being on the surface of the planet would help them and they obviously had the ability of harvesting the particles from the rings, why couldn't they have just sent a smaller collector to get what just they needed?
Orbit on the far side of the planet and the Baku would have no idea they would be there, the Federation would not be involved (I doubt the Federation would detect or care about a small vessel traveling through the Brier Patch, lingering for a couple of hours, then leaving...)
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Old October 10 2013, 06:08 PM   #109
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Re: The Son'a

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
TwoJakes;8747638It's impossible to say if the area was unclaimed when the Baku party arrived, it might have been, or the Romulan [B wrote:
could[/B] have held it at the time, or another interstellar power perchance.
The lack of cloaked mine fields or other anything else the Romulans would use to show they control an area indicates otherwise ...
In Balance of Terror, Kirk took the Enterprise into Romulan Empire space directly opposite a line of Earth outposts, on the section of the border closest to the Romulan Homeworld.

No "cloaked mines."

Apparently such mines are far from ubiquitous.

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
If the Sona were beyond the point of just being on the surface of the planet would help them and they obviously had the ability of harvesting the particles from the rings, why couldn't they have just sent a smaller collector to get what just they needed?
The Federation and the Sona and were planning to change the particles in the ring into another form for purposes of collection, changing just a small portion might not have been possible. All or nothing.

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
... why bring in the Federation ...
The Sona might have recognized that any claim to the planet on their parts (or by the Baku) would be invalid next to the Federation's claim, that least in the Federation Council's eyes.

They had no desire to have future problems with the Federation, so did not attempt to stand on their own weak claim. Instead they approached the Council and proposed a partnership.

Last edited by TwoJakes; October 10 2013 at 06:27 PM.
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Old October 10 2013, 07:39 PM   #110
sonak
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Re: The Son'a

The Overlord wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
A deleted scene in INS which involved Riker and Troi in the library; Riker says something to the extent that the Son'a came to the Federation for assistance because the planet is in Fed space. So legally the Federation would have jurisdiction over the planet. This could explain the collaborate agreement between the Admiral Doughtery and Ru'afo. The Son'a filed all the legal paperwork and went through the proper channels seeking Federation help. The Federation would've gained technology and the methods to replicate the metaphasic particles of the planet for collaborating with the Son'a.

On the surface it seems legit. The Son'a however neglected to mention that the 600 occupants of the planet were their relatives.
Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation. Except in cases of war/conquered territory, or maybe some sort of special treaty situation, of course.

The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are. To suggest that they would then be perfectly ok with a legal construction giving them 'jurisdiction' over planets that are not already inhabited, because their inhabitants are advanced enough have interstellar relations makes no sense.

Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native, which means Dougherty is conspiring to basically the most massive violation of the prime directive ever shown. In other words, blatantly illegal.
The problem with the Prime Directive Argument is, couldn't the Son'a have used it to keep the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a from kicking the Ba'ku off the planet? If the Son'a are really Ba'ku, why couldn't they have used that as a basis to lay claim to the planet and then keep the Federation out by saying its an internal Ba'ku matter.

It seems like the Son'a could have won by just telling the truth, which makes them pretty ineffective villains.

yes, this is pretty much it exactly. The PD effectively screws the Baku even MORE than not invoking it would. Given the "twist" at the end, it makes the Son'a out to be complete idiots, because if Ru'afo had just gone to Dougherty and said "this is really our planet as much as the Baku's, and we're inviting you(the federation) to help us," then the CENTRAL DILEMMA IS OVER!

What a poorly written movie. The big twist actually weakens the case for the Baku even more.
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Old October 11 2013, 01:25 AM   #111
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation. Except in cases of war/conquered territory, or maybe some sort of special treaty situation, of course.

The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are. To suggest that they would then be perfectly ok with a legal construction giving them 'jurisdiction' over planets that are not already inhabited, because their inhabitants are advanced enough have interstellar relations makes no sense.

Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native, which means Dougherty is conspiring to basically the most massive violation of the prime directive ever shown. In other words, blatantly illegal.
The problem with the Prime Directive Argument is, couldn't the Son'a have used it to keep the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a from kicking the Ba'ku off the planet? If the Son'a are really Ba'ku, why couldn't they have used that as a basis to lay claim to the planet and then keep the Federation out by saying its an internal Ba'ku matter.

It seems like the Son'a could have won by just telling the truth, which makes them pretty ineffective villains.
Well, since they left the planet for a hundred years, their claim may be a bit weak. Still - it's entirely possible the Federation would decide not to get involved, what with the Dominion war going on at the same time. Maybe the Sona just really didn't understand the Federation very well and were basing their decisions on what they thought the Fed. might do.
How is their claim weak? The only reason they left the planet is because they forced out by the Ba'ku and now they are using force to kick the Ba'ku off the planet. So they are doing the same thing the Ba'ku did to them.

Plus the Son'a really should have studied everything they could have about the Federation before they entered into a alliance with them, it seems like with a little research they would have found out about the PD and then used it to their advantage.

If the PD prevents the Federation from stopping Cardassia from ravaging Bajor, why wouldn't prevent the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a?

That is why making the Son'a Ba'ku didn't work. If the Son'a were just really evil alien invaders who just wanted to live forever, then they would make more sense as characters.
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Old October 11 2013, 10:22 AM   #112
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Son'a

The Overlord wrote: View Post

How is their claim weak? The only reason they left the planet is because they forced out by the Ba'ku and now they are using force to kick the Ba'ku off the planet. So they are doing the same thing the Ba'ku did to them.

Plus the Son'a really should have studied everything they could have about the Federation before they entered into a alliance with them, it seems like with a little research they would have found out about the PD and then used it to their advantage.

If the PD prevents the Federation from stopping Cardassia from ravaging Bajor, why wouldn't prevent the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a?

That is why making the Son'a Ba'ku didn't work. If the Son'a were just really evil alien invaders who just wanted to live forever, then they would make more sense as characters.
I don't really think it was the Prime Directive that prevented the Federation from helping Bajor. It was the fact that the Federation failed to win an overwhelming victory in the Federation/Cardassian war and valued peace more highly than justice for Bajor.
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Old October 11 2013, 12:15 PM   #113
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Re: The Son'a

^ This. The Federation lacked the mean to simply throw the Cardassians off of Bajor. The Federation had been fighting a multi-year long war with the Cardassians over an area of territorial expansion they both wanted, and the Cardassians were far from push overs in the military realm.


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Old October 11 2013, 03:39 PM   #114
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Re: The Son'a

If you buy into the novels, the matter is complicated by the fact that the recognized Bajoran government initially welcomed the Cardassians. By the time the Cardassian intentions became more clear, unfortunately the corrupt officials who'd risen within the government cared more about themselves than the planet and the population in general..I hate to phrase it this way, really I do...didn't or wasn't able to do enough to convince anyone that the government no longer spoke for the people.
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Old October 11 2013, 04:11 PM   #115
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
^ This. The Federation lacked the mean to simply throw the Cardassians off of Bajor. The Federation had been fighting a multi-year long war with the Cardassians over an area of territorial expansion they both wanted, and the Cardassians were far from push overs in the military realm.


(OO)

the fact that the Federation was in a war against Bajor's enemy at the time makes it stupider that they didn't intervene to help them. In war, you ally yourself with those who are fighting your opponent. The Federation should have at least been supplying the Bajorans with weapons or something like that.
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Old October 11 2013, 05:41 PM   #116
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Son'a

sonak wrote: View Post
the fact that the Federation was in a war against Bajor's enemy at the time makes it stupider that they didn't intervene to help them. In war, you ally yourself with those who are fighting your opponent. The Federation should have at least been supplying the Bajorans with weapons or something like that.

How do you know they weren't, at some point, doing just that? The Cardassian war happened almost entirely off screen. The Bajoran resistance certainly didn't seem to have much difficulty getting its hands on weapons.

But as far as fully 'allying' with them - there would be serious difficulty even finding a bajoran 'government' that wasn't in the Cardassians' pockets and had an even remotely legitimate claim to representing Bajor. The occupation had already been underway for decades and there, afaik, was no remnant left whatsoever of whatever indepedent militia Bajor might have had prior to the Cardassians' arrival. Nothing but informally organized resistance cells who don't even know each other's names.

So it's hardly surprising that the Federation didn't press the Cardassians on the subject of a planet which seemingly is pretty far away from Federation space when they couldn't even reach a peace agreement that allowed all actual Federation colonies to remain in the Federation.
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Old October 12 2013, 12:28 AM   #117
The Overlord
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post

How is their claim weak? The only reason they left the planet is because they forced out by the Ba'ku and now they are using force to kick the Ba'ku off the planet. So they are doing the same thing the Ba'ku did to them.

Plus the Son'a really should have studied everything they could have about the Federation before they entered into a alliance with them, it seems like with a little research they would have found out about the PD and then used it to their advantage.

If the PD prevents the Federation from stopping Cardassia from ravaging Bajor, why wouldn't prevent the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a?

That is why making the Son'a Ba'ku didn't work. If the Son'a were just really evil alien invaders who just wanted to live forever, then they would make more sense as characters.
I don't really think it was the Prime Directive that prevented the Federation from helping Bajor. It was the fact that the Federation failed to win an overwhelming victory in the Federation/Cardassian war and valued peace more highly than justice for Bajor.
Except Picard told a Bajoran leader in the "Ensign Ro" episode, that the invasion of Bajor occurred within Cardassian borders and that is why they didn't get involved. So it seems like it was more of a political decision not get involved, more then anything else.

Also it seems like that Federation didn't want to get involved in the Klingon Civil War, because it was an internal Klingon matter. Heck, the Federation didn't want to stop the Circle from taking over Bajor, because that was considered an internal Bajoran matter, regardless of Cardassian involvement.

Again it seems like the Son'a could have just told the truth, claimed it was an internal matter and then the Federation wouldn't have done anything and they would have won. That is why making the Son'a Ba'ku didn't work, it brought up a million plot holes.
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Old October 12 2013, 06:42 PM   #118
Elvira
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation.
Straight out question, why not?

If the population were to be indigenous to the world this would certainly make a difference. But if the population were immigrants from elsewhere, that wouldn't automatically prevent the Federation from "claiming" a planet as being within their space.

Both the Federation and the Klingons "claimed" Sherman's Planet ('Tribbles), it wasn't simplistically a matter of who got there first. The Federation and the Cardassian Union fought for years over a piece of territory that they both "claimed," final agreeing to divide it up. In one case, the territory being colonized was already in dispute prior to the Human colonists traveling to the colony planet.

In the case of the ring planet, the established fact that the planet had a small number of refugee/residents already there doesn't preclude the Federation from viewing the planet as being within their space, and a part of Federation territory. The Baku mere presence on the surface did confer upon them ownership and sovereignty of the planet.

It made no difference if they (simplistically) "got there first."

The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are.
The Federation Council's decision to order the removal of the Baku would indicate that the Council didn't view the Baku as possessing sovereignty over the planet.

Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native ...
I believe only Picard (and his crew) were initially under the impression that the Baku were e natives, and that didn't last long. Dougherty was fully aware that the Baku were not indigenous to the ring planet, meaning the Federation Council (from whom Dougherty received his orders) was also fully aware.

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Old October 12 2013, 09:29 PM   #119
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation.
Straight out question, why not?

If the population were to be indigenous to the world this would certainly make a difference. But if the population were immigrants from elsewhere, that wouldn't automatically prevent the Federation from "claiming" a planet as being within their space.
Obviously, there isn't anything that automatically prevents anyone from claiming anything. The point, however, is the Federation's rules are supposed to be a little more fair-minded than 'want, take, have'. The Baku didn't just get there first - they lived there for over 300 years, from before the Federation even existed. For the Federation to even entertain the idea that their claim isn't valid just because they didn't originally evolve there is absurd. Especially since the Federation itself consists for a large part of planets whose populations evolved elsewhere.

Both the Federation and the Klingons "claimed" Sherman's Planet ('Tribbles), it wasn't simplistically a matter of who got there first. The Federation and the Cardassian Union fought for years over a piece of territory that they both "claimed," final agreeing to divide it up. In one case, the territory being colonized was already in dispute prior to the Human colonists traveling to the colony planet.
There's quite a difference between warring parties refusing to recognize each other's claims and building competing settlements in the same region and the Federation refusing to recognize the Baku's claim because, well, just because.

In the case of the ring planet, the established fact that the planet had a small number of refugee/residents already there doesn't preclude the Federation from viewing the planet as being within their space, and a part of Federation territory. The Baku mere presence on the surface did confer upon them ownership and sovereignty of the planet.
And exactly what does, then? By this standard, any colony can be uprooted for any reason.

It made no difference if they (simplistically) "got there first."
Then it would make no difference if Federation colonies were torn apart by enemy powers who wanted their territory. Yet, it clearly does make a difference. The only reason the Federation's actions here didn't result in a war is because the Baku were too small a community and disliked using technology.

The Federation Council's decision to order the removal of the Baku would indicate that the Council didn't view the Baku as possessing sovereignty over the planet.
1) We really have no clear idea how the Council works. This mission could've been approved solely on the recommendation of some sub-committee fully stacked with Dougherty's political buddies.

2) Determining whether the Baku have sovereignty or not should not be the responsibility of a body which has a vested interest in a 'negative' outcome, legally or morally.

3) We only even have Dougherty's word that the mission is even really approved by the Council at all. He certainly seems extremely nervous about the idea of the Enterprise contacting the Council itself to denounce the mission.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:43 AM   #120
Elvira
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Determining whether the Baku have sovereignty or not should not be the responsibility of a body which has a vested interest in a 'negative' outcome, legally or morally.
Okay, by that reasoning the determination could not be made by the Baku either. Or the Sona.

Would you like to suggest a neutral third party?

We only even have Dougherty's word that the mission is even really approved by the Council at all.
We only have Anij's word that the Baku have been on the planet for three centuries.

Dougherty ... He certainly seems extremely nervous about the idea of the Enterprise contacting the Council itself to denounce the mission.
I saw no nervousness.

... stacked with Dougherty's political buddies.
Dougherty's? My take is that he was brought in only after the Council made the decision to proceed, and he would have been assigned by Starfleet Command.

It made no difference if they (simplistically) "got there first."
Then it would make no difference if Federation colonies were torn apart by enemy powers who wanted their territory.
Ensigns of Command. Humans (simplistically) got there first, but this didn't grant them ownership or sovereignty over the planet. As it turns out, the planet was in someone else space.

By this standard, any colony can be uprooted for any reason.
It's important to remember that the Baku were being removed solely to prevent them from being killed by the harvesting of the particles. If the harvesting process wasn't going to kill the Baku, likely no effort would have been made to move them.

The point, however, is the Federation's rules are supposed to be a little more fair-minded than 'want, take, have'.
But the Federation also isn't a bunch of pushovers, just because the pretty tree-hugging white people are all soft and defenseless, doesn't mean that the Federation now has to back off.

If might doesn't make right, can't the same thing be said about being weak.

The particles will help billions. Not several hundred in a quaint little village ... billions. The fact is the Federation is ultimately the altruistic party here, the Baku (once Picard told them the truth) were being selfish by not voluntarily leaving. They were earlier being selfish by not tell the surrounding galaxy the truth shortly after arriving on the planet.

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