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Old October 9 2013, 04:40 AM   #46
Nerys Myk
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if it's significant, but I always wondered about the implications of Spock's line from Spectre of the Gun: "The names were known in the annals of the opening of the western sector of America. The United States of America, that is."
What implications would there be? "America" covers two continents, Spock simply clarified which part of "America" he meant.
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Old October 9 2013, 05:06 AM   #47
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

That's very true, Geoff. The main reason it stood out to me was by that point in the conversation, Kirk and Spock had already referenced "an American frontier town, circa 1880", "Tombstone, Arizona", and "my ancestors pioneered the American frontier". It just seemed an extra point of clarity which didn't seem needed to the conversation as it unfolded.
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Old October 9 2013, 05:26 AM   #48
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Bad writing.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:55 AM   #49
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Or just Spock being a Vulcan and being more precise.
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Old October 9 2013, 11:09 AM   #50
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

The thing that would stand out to me about that line is that he calls the us 'The western sector of America'.

If the distinction here is between North and South America, it's seems extremely illogical to label it 'western'. Actually almost seems to imply that the US no longer controls the entire eastern part of North America.
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Old October 9 2013, 12:40 PM   #51
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
The thing that would stand out to me about that line is that he calls the us 'The western sector of America'.

If the distinction here is between North and South America, it's seems extremely illogical to label it 'western'. Actually almost seems to imply that the US no longer controls the entire eastern part of North America.
West and Far West are employed globally to speak of the regions west of the Mississippi without complete regard to political borders. It is primarily known for geography: plains, mountain ranges, lack of rivers and aridity. Spock could use it without implying that the US does or does not exist.
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Old October 9 2013, 12:57 PM   #52
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Or maybe it is the more obvious reason: a TV series produced in the US in a nation that refers to themselves as Americans, and in the 1960s, long before the politically correct speak of referring to everything in the Western Hemisphere as "American" became common. If TOS was produced today, Spock probably would have been written as saying "Western US," instead.

In the US, American usually means " a citizen of the US, or something from the US" referencing nationality and this is normally understood within the US, but outside of the US, in North and South America, people also refer to themselves as "American," usually in Latin American countries (IE Canadians usually still call themselves Canadian, sometimes NORTH American, because Canadians DON'T like being confused with being US Americans).

However, someone from say Colombia might say they are "American," but are actually referencing the fact they are from the continent of South America (IE North and South America are combined as the "Americas,") just as a French person might say they are European) and from that stand point, are equally valid, when they say they are "American," too. But this idea is confusing to some people in the US (or people in countries that mean US citizens, when they say American), as they say American meaning nationality, because it is easier to say American, than United Statesian.
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Old October 9 2013, 01:18 PM   #53
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

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Or maybe it is the more obvious reason: a TV series produced in the US in a nation that refers to themselves as Americans, and in the 1960s, long before the politically correct speak of referring to everything in the Western Hemisphere as "American" became common. If TOS was produced today, Spock probably would have been written as saying "Western US," instead.

In the US, American usually means " a citizen of the US, or something from the US" referencing nationality and this is normally understood within the US, but outside of the US, in North and South America, people also refer to themselves as "American," usually in Latin American countries (IE Canadians usually still call themselves Canadian, sometimes NORTH American, because Canadians DON'T like being confused with being US Americans).

However, someone from say Colombia might say they are "American," but are actually referencing the fact they are from the continent of South America (IE North and South America are combined as the "Americas,") just as a French person might say they are European) and from that stand point, are equally valid, when they say they are "American," too. But this idea is confusing to some people in the US (or people in countries that mean US citizens, when they say American), as they say American meaning nationality, because it is easier to say American, than United Statesian.
Yes, the demonym usually refers to the nationals of the USA, but America almost always refers to the two continents of the western hemisphere. The United States (╔tats-Unis or Vereinigten Staaten) is the name of the nation.

Such an incongruity between demonym and toponym isn't unusual: Arabs, of course, are far more widely dispersed than the Arabia.
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Old October 9 2013, 03:31 PM   #54
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
long before the politically correct speak of referring to everything in the Western Hemisphere as "American" became common.

However, someone from say Colombia might say they are "American," but are actually referencing the fact they are from the continent of South America
A large portion of my father's side of the family lives in Brazil, and I lived there as a child, and have visited other nations on the continent. For someone from South America to self identify as a "American" is almost unknown.

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Old October 9 2013, 06:28 PM   #55
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if it's significant, but I always wondered about the implications of Spock's line from Spectre of the Gun: "The names were known in the annals of the opening of the western sector of America. The United States of America, that is."
Of the Enterprise crew, there was a Vulcan, a Russian, a Scotsman (Scotty never mention being from the "UK"), and two Americans (from Iowa and somewhere in the south-east).

Spock used a term that would be recognized by the two Americans in the party, and then clarified for the two from elsewhere on Earth.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:46 PM   #56
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Solbor's Blood wrote: View Post

More Evidence the Soviet Union exists in the 24th century:

The SS Tsiolkovsky.
Isn't that a novelty gift from the Tsiolkovsky Museum? I believe you can see it there now.
I'm not sure. I do remember hearing a complaint brought up that they spelled his name wrong, though not being able to read Russian, I can't verify that. I'd like to think a museum in his honor wouldn't have made such a mistake, though it would be funny if they did. Either way, novelty gift or not it was written in the language of the universe to be a prop in the universe. Granted the USSR was still a going concern in 1988.

I mean since the whole Eugenics war bit were supposed to happen in the 90's it's more than clear that the Trek timeline "diverged" from ours long ago, so the Soviet Union not falling is hardly a game breaker.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:45 AM   #57
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

TwoJakes wrote: View Post
LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if it's significant, but I always wondered about the implications of Spock's line from Spectre of the Gun: "The names were known in the annals of the opening of the western sector of America. The United States of America, that is."
Of the Enterprise crew, there was a Vulcan, a Russian, a Scotsman (Scotty never mention being from the "UK"), and two Americans (from Iowa and somewhere in the south-east).

Spock used a term that would be recognized by the two Americans in the party, and then clarified for the two from elsewhere on Earth.
Sulu was Asian-American, he was born in San Francisco.
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Old October 10 2013, 01:02 PM   #58
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
long before the politically correct speak of referring to everything in the Western Hemisphere as "American" became common.

However, someone from say Colombia might say they are "American," but are actually referencing the fact they are from the continent of South America
A large portion of my father's side of the family lives in Brazil, and I lived there as a child, and have visited other nations on the continent. For someone from South America to self identify as a "American" is almost unknown.

Then it is possible I have been misinformed, because I took a class that stated the opposite: that in many Latin American countries in particular, in Both North and South America, many people identify themselves as "American," regardless if they are Mexican, Guatemalan, Panamanian, etc. Perhaps it is more a Central American thing, then? Or maybe it is a small but vocal amount of people who do this? Or it could possibly be something more akin to a train of thought rooted mostly in academia? Or maybe a little bit of all, where maybe it is a very small minority of people in said locations that practice this, and academia has picked up on this and exaggerated the extent of the practice, making it sound more widespread than it really is?

Anyway, my understanding for the rationale of people in the Americas outside the US calling themselves "American," is somewhat of a reaction to the fact the US citizens referring to themselves as American, and they feel the term has been highjacked by the US, and minimizes or excludes other people that live in the Americas, but outside the US.

And, BTW, this is not to be confused with indigenous peoples of the Americas (including Native Americans of the US and Americas in general, AKA Amerinds), whom also refer to themselves as American (which one has to agree that they are in fact the ORIGINAL Americans), regardless if they are in the US or elsewhere in North or South America.
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Old October 10 2013, 05:12 PM   #59
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

^
I've an Aunt from Argentina and I've never heard anything like that from her, or her family when they come over. Sounds like PCness run amok more than anything else to me.
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Old October 10 2013, 06:31 PM   #60
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Re: USA and UK surviving into the Trek era

Push The Button wrote: View Post
Sulu was Asian-American, he was born in San Francisco.
Lt. Sulu was not a part of the Enterprise's landing party in that episode.
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