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Old October 8 2013, 11:36 PM   #901
DalekJim
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

TheRedPill wrote: View Post
Hank usually did the right thing, if not always for the right reasons. Walt pretty much always did the wrong thing, and rarely for the right reasons. There is very, very little moral equivalence between them. Walt killed innocent people. Hank never did.
That isn't really being debated. I just contest that Walt was "evil", as pretty much everything he does in the finale is the opposite of that. It really dumbs the show down if people view Walt as evil and "the baddie". It's so much more interesting than that. Seeing people act like he's Michael Myers or Emperor Palpatine bothers me, and it's largely a view from people who have only recently jumped on to the show.

I think the only characters in the show that could be considered truly evil, would be the Nazis that weren't Todd. Even he'd show a bit of humanity now and again.
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Old October 9 2013, 01:16 AM   #902
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Of course the show is more complex than evil or not, but saying Walt isn't that bad of a guy because in the finale he protected his family from gangsters that would have never been in his before the meth, saved Jesse after wanting him dead and blah blah is just silly.
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Old October 9 2013, 02:54 AM   #903
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

DalekJim wrote: View Post
TheRedPill wrote: View Post
Hank usually did the right thing, if not always for the right reasons. Walt pretty much always did the wrong thing, and rarely for the right reasons. There is very, very little moral equivalence between them. Walt killed innocent people. Hank never did.
That isn't really being debated. I just contest that Walt was "evil", as pretty much everything he does in the finale is the opposite of that. It really dumbs the show down if people view Walt as evil and "the baddie". It's so much more interesting than that. Seeing people act like he's Michael Myers or Emperor Palpatine bothers me, and it's largely a view from people who have only recently jumped on to the show.

I think the only characters in the show that could be considered truly evil, would be the Nazis that weren't Todd. Even he'd show a bit of humanity now and again.
As far as Walt goes, I can see what you're saying to a point.

Todd is a sociopath pure and simple.

Nothing personal, indeed.
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Old October 9 2013, 04:24 AM   #904
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Hank outright says he doesn't care if Jesse lives or dies or is harmed by Walt as a part of Hank's manipulations simply because he's a junkie. How are Steve Gomez's death and Jesse's year of hell not lives ruined as a direct result of Hank's vendetta?
Not simply because he's a junkie, he's also a murderer. Hank is callous about Jesse, true, in a way a lot of people in law enforcement become callous. But as he sees it Jesse arrived at that point because of his own choices, not anything Hank did, nor was Hank forcing him to do anything.

Hank's and Gomie's deaths and Jesse's imprisonment are a direct result of Walter White's criminality, vengefulness, ego and greed. Hank reacted to that, and it can indeed be said that his reaction was wrong. But it was a reaction, not the cause.
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Old October 9 2013, 03:17 PM   #905
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Borgminister wrote: View Post
Todd is a sociopath pure and simple.

Nothing personal, indeed.
Well, he may be a sociopath but I'm astonished at the amount of people who think he's Gregor Clegane, a two-dimensional killing machine who only kills for personal, sadistic pleasure. It's pretty clear to me that while Todd has no qualms about ending someone else's life, he's someone who does it because he's desperate for the approval of some authority figure who can tell him that he did well. He killed the kid because he thought it would show him as being responsible and reliable to his superiors. Same reason for Andrea, just different superiors. He only decides to help kill Walt once he figures out it would have Lydia's consent. Uncle Jack, Walt, Lydia, hell, even Jesse when he brings him ice cream. He doesn't give a fuck if Jesse eats ice cream; he just wants approval from someone, acknowledgement that he's not such a bad guy. Doesn't make him a nice person, but it's more characterization and humanizing qualities than any of the other Nazis are given, who ARE just caricatures there to get gunned down in finale and probably Breaking Bad's weakest characters overall for precisely that reason.

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Hank is callous about Jesse, true, in a way a lot of people in law enforcement become callous.
And that makes it any less disgusting that he doesn't care if Jesse gets killed in a situation Hank put him in so long as they capture it on video camera?

But as he sees it Jesse arrived at that point because of his own choices, not anything Hank did, nor was Hank forcing him to do anything.
Sounds like pretty Walt-esque justification.

Hank's and Gomie's deaths and Jesse's imprisonment are a direct result of Walter White's criminality, vengefulness, ego and greed. Hank reacted to that, and it can indeed be said that his reaction was wrong. But it was a reaction, not the cause.
ANY situation in Breaking Bad could be broken down to "reacting" to the fucked up, chaotic world they live in, be it Hank in a situation of Walt's making or Walt in a situation of Gus's or whatever. It's what choices they make IN those situations that matters; I'm not going to give someone a free pass for reaction because all action is reaction, especially in a cluterfuck of a world like the black market drug trade.

Hank chose not to tell the DEA about Walt. Hank chose to go after Walt personally. Hank chose to specifically use Walt's vulnerable points, Jesse and the money. And it was only after those vulnerable points were threatened that Walt was backed far enough into the corner that he called the Nazis. Again, no one saying Hank is Walt 2.0, but I think it's similarly disingenuous to remove all culpability and blame from Hank's deliberate decisions, knowing the consequences could be bad for himself and the people he cares about. Like Hank, Jesse, Gus, and everyone else, Hank chose to go deeper into the city of fire and like the rest, got burned.
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Last edited by Nagisa Furukawa; October 9 2013 at 03:34 PM.
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Old October 9 2013, 03:35 PM   #906
DalekJim
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
saying Walt isn't that bad of a guy because in the finale he protected his family from gangsters
Nobody in the thread has said this. I just said that Walt wasn't pure evil, and people who thought he was have an incredibly simple interpretation of the show.
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Old October 9 2013, 06:48 PM   #907
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Very good finale, though not quite the legendary episode the way T'Hajilee and Ozymandias were. It felt a little tidy and safe, but I think they were walking on eggshells a little bit because of all the finale disappointments out there.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:07 PM   #908
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Oliver Stone slams 'Breaking Bad' finale
What a tool.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:15 PM   #909
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Yep. I think the key phrase in the entire article is in the first paragraph (bolding is mine for emphasis):
Oliver Stone still knows how to get people rankled. The Platoon director reportedly slammed the finale of AMC’s Breaking Bad while promoting his documentary series The Untold History of the United States.
The true agenda for his comments is quite clear - to ride on the coattails and unbridled popularity of a great show as a vehicle to convey the hawking of his particular "brand" of wares that probably would have, otherwise, gone generally unnoticed.

Some people are born without arms and/or legs; Mr. Stone seems to have been born without shame.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:25 PM   #910
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Very funny coming from the writer of Scarface.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:30 PM   #911
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

^^^ I hadn't thought of that - indeed!

Then again, like I said, I don't think he really believes the B.S. coming out of his mouth and falling on the floor about BB. He's just trying to raise awareness for his show, which will no doubt be a conspiracy-encrusted JFK-esque circle-jerk. I will probably watch it for the laugh, m'self...
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Old October 9 2013, 08:43 PM   #912
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

I was going to respond to the responses to the question I posed re: Hank, but so many have done a much better job of responding than I could have.

Suffice it to say that though Walt's personality was very complex, he obviously loved his family (including Hank), he was still a murderous drug dealer, but who killed only bad guys. There was really no comparison between the two in terms of "darkness".

Hank was pretty simple by comparison. Typical cop mentality; you're either one of the good guys or one of the bad. But even before he knew Walt was Hisenberg he was obsessed with catching him. To say that Hank was driven to bring Walt to justice by nothing but a thirst for vengence and anger simply isn't what was shown on screen.

Hank would have moved heaven and earth to get Hisenberg. Finding out it was Walt did add a layer of hurt, anger, and humiliation, but that was nothing different from what any normal person would have felt under the same circumstances. And regardless of that, Hank would still have pursued Hisenberg with the same amount of fervor even if he had not truned out to be Walt -- just not without the DEA.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:52 PM   #913
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Then again, like I said, I don't think he really believes the B.S. coming out of his mouth and falling on the floor about BB. He's just trying to raise awareness for his show, which will no doubt be a conspiracy-encrusted JFK-esque circle-jerk.
I think so, too. Although, seems the smart move would have been for him to flatter us Breaking Bad fans, thereby making us more inclined to view his own product favorably, than to trash it. Sour grapes over his puny-in-comparison viewership numbers, perhaps?
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Old October 9 2013, 09:00 PM   #914
137th Gebirg
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

^^^ Heh...most normal humans would do exactly that, yes. But this is Oliver Stone, who has built a respectable empire from mud-slinging and muck-raking. He seems to thrive on stirring the pot and knows no other strategy. He probably rationalizes it as an attempt to "get people thinking". I enjoyed Platoon and Any Given Sunday. All the rest of his crap, though? Feh...
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Old October 9 2013, 11:10 PM   #915
A beaker full of death
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Sorry to join late, but...
am I the only person who really didn't have much a of a problem with pretty much anything Walter White did at any point? Admittedly, I might be forgetting something...
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