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Old October 8 2013, 12:34 PM   #886
Solstice
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

He wanted his drug money to go to his family, and it (probably) will. That was the single most important thing to him, and he achieved it, at least so far as he could. He also saved Jesse from the Nazis, and he only had the opportunity to do that because they didn't kill him as he'd originally wanted. He got to go out on about as high a note as was possible at that point.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:54 PM   #887
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

I like that the finale vindicated my opposition to team "Walt is evil!". In the final episode he did his best with a bad hand, and died a hero.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:12 PM   #888
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

He did best with a bad hand?!?!

HE'S THE ONE THAT RIGGED THE DECK!



Everything was his fault, did he do decent in the final episode? Sure, but he destroyed his family, got part of his family killed, murdered countless others and poisoned children, let others die.

He was evil, and finally admitted it in the end.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:16 PM   #889
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
He was evil, and finally admitted it in the end.
He admitted he cooked for himself and not his family; he didn't admit he was "evil."
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Old October 8 2013, 06:21 PM   #890
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Walt is a deeply flawed human being that has done terrible things, but there's obvious decency tucked in there. I think reducing Breaking Bad to a show about goodies vs baddies is simplistic. The reason I liked the second half of Season 5 so much was that Walt and Hank were both super flawed people with their nice and dark sides. It was what made the show so tragic.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:22 PM   #891
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Because that's how the show works.. every action carried a reaction and consequences. It would have tanked the entire show when suddenly in the finale everything was fixed, the cancer wouldn't kill him for some miraculous reason and he would get to keep the money to start over somewhere else.

He just had the fortune to be able to keep it together for one last time to tie up loose ends and go out with a "small" victory (as Vince Gilligan put it).
Walt managed to say goodbye to Holly; managed to provide for Junior; saved Skyler from Lydia and the Nazis; finally reconnected to Skyler by suddenly growing the balls to finally be honest; finally overcame his obsession with money by killing Jack Hitler; even reconciled with his son, albeit the surrogate, Jesse! About the only thing he didn't triumph at was beating cancer.

Maybe in his head Gilligan thinks Granite State showed Walt finally beaten, and Felina only shows Walt winning small. But, thematically, Walt wins big in Felina. I think that the only thing that kept the episode from grinding it in the viewers' face that they were Team Walt all along was that, when Walt suddenly became the hero willing to accept martyrdom, that we had Jesse the anti-villain rejecting cold-blooded murder, of anyone, not even Walter White.

At the beginning of the series, Walter White, afraid of dying and contemptuous of everything he has in his life, breaks bad. Everything after was about trying to live in memory as Heisenberg and using his money to control his family after his death, ways of denying his mortality. His rediscovery of courage and acceptance in the last few episodes is not really very believable. It's gratification for Walt identification.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:42 PM   #892
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

DalekJim wrote: View Post
The reason I liked the second half of Season 5 so much was that Walt and Hank were both super flawed people with their nice and dark sides. It was what made the show so tragic.
How was Hank "super flawed" and (with a ) dark (side). especially when you use those same terms to describe Walt?
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Old October 8 2013, 08:50 PM   #893
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Hank was more sympathetic than Walt, but he was definitely largely driven by his ego and desire for vengeance, rather than concern for the law in his closing few episodes. I enjoyed this type of storytelling, with ambiguous and conflicted characters. Even Todd got to show a nice side at times.

I often wonder what show some fans have been watching. Especially when I read stuff about Walt declaring he was evil in the finale. Eh? This wasn't Star Wars.

My favourite Breaking Bad character was Mike, and you couldn't pigeon-hole him as a good or evil character.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:51 PM   #894
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

gblews wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
The reason I liked the second half of Season 5 so much was that Walt and Hank were both super flawed people with their nice and dark sides. It was what made the show so tragic.
How was Hank "super flawed" and (with a ) dark (side). especially when you use those same terms to describe Walt?
If Hank truly was the Good Guy (TM), he'd have gone to the DEA with his information, his own career be damned. He decided to hold out for one reason, which not so coincidentally is the same reason Walt does what he does: pride. He wanted to be the one to bring him in and by trying to go Captain Ahab/Dr. Loomis and use Jesse to go after his money, he backed Walt into such a corner that he got the Nazis involved. If Hank had been more concerned with putting away a murderer rather than personally beating Walt, he and Steve Gomez would still be alive.
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Old October 8 2013, 09:15 PM   #895
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Hank can be 'kind of a jerk' as we've seen him be throughout the show and he's not always the most attentive husband, but those are normal person flaws. Walt's flaws are 'Evil murderer sociopath' flaws. Big difference there.

I saw his decision not to tell the DEA as motivated by embarrassment and pride rather than vengeance. The only reason it was important to him to bring Walt in himself was because he had previously made Walt his confidant in his entire investigation and he didn't want to make that walk of shame.

It's true, Walt is not as evil as the Nazis. But he's equally evil as, say, Fring. And come to think of it, Jesse (Would have if not for Jack) beat Walt the same way Walt beat Fring. He found his emotional vulnerability that overrode his rational cleverness.
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Old October 8 2013, 09:19 PM   #896
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Well, in the finale I saw, Walt was finally selflessly honest to Skyler, showed he had conquered his greed when he immediately killed Jack, and proceeded to die to save his friend.

Hardly bloody Emperor Palpatine.
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Old October 8 2013, 09:33 PM   #897
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Hank screwed up the way he handled he case, but let's not pretend that he and Walt were equivalent. One was killing people and ruining people's lives, the other was not.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Well, in the finale I saw, Walt was finally selflessly honest to Skyler, showed he had conquered his greed when he immediately killed Jack, and proceeded to die to save his friend.
Not a big gesture of conquering greed since he would not be able to get the money to his family and wouldn't be able to spend it himself. And his "friend" only needed to be saved because Walt was trying to have him killed.
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Old October 8 2013, 09:37 PM   #898
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

stj wrote: View Post
Walt managed to say goodbye to Holly; managed to provide for Junior; saved Skyler from Lydia and the Nazis; finally reconnected to Skyler by suddenly growing the balls to finally be honest; finally overcame his obsession with money by killing Jack Hitler; even reconciled with his son, albeit the surrogate, Jesse! About the only thing he didn't triumph at was beating cancer.
All of these things are just spun in positive way when there is equally a negative side.

- Walt had already said goodbye to Holly when he left her in the fire truck, but even still saying goodbye just acknowledged that he was going to die.
- While providing for Junior, Junior still hates Walt's guts and doesn't know the truth about him and that he didn't kill Hank.
- Skyler may have been saved from the Nazis and maybe even with the whole location of Hank's body, but it's still likely that she would be facing some legal troubles.
- Walt's reconnection with Skyler didn't mean much because it too little too late... everything in their body language conveyed that.
- Walt was obviously still obsessed over the money or he wouldn't have been going through the whole plan with Gretchen and Elliott. The only reason he didn't go after the rest of the money was to implicate himself and not his family. He was further building that legend of Heisenberg, which isn't exactly the honorable removal of obsession (although it doesn't exactly defeat the delusion theory either).
- His last meeting with Jesse I don't think qualifies as a reconciliation.


I think the whole idea that the finale is a delusion of Walt's is silly. It ignores all of the negative that is there and focuses purely on the positive. But there is plenty of negative.

And seriously, for every time that Walt got lucky in the show, if we questioned it every time as being a delusion, then that just defeats the whole purpose of the show.
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Old October 8 2013, 09:41 PM   #899
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

Hank usually did the right thing, if not always for the right reasons. Walt pretty much always did the wrong thing, and rarely for the right reasons. There is very, very little moral equivalence between them. Walt killed innocent people. Hank never did.
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Old October 8 2013, 11:30 PM   #900
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Re: Breaking Bad Final Half Season

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I saw his decision not to tell the DEA as motivated by embarrassment and pride rather than vengeance. The only reason it was important to him to bring Walt in himself was because he had previously made Walt his confidant in his entire investigation and he didn't want to make that walk of shame.
I said it was because of pride. If it wasn't for this flaw, Steve Gomez would be alive and Marie would have someone coming home to her every night.

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
One was ... ruining people's lives, the other was not.
Hank outright says he doesn't care if Jesse lives or dies or is harmed by Walt as a part of Hank's manipulations simply because he's a junkie. How are Steve Gomez's death and Jesse's year of hell not lives ruined as a direct result of Hank's vendetta?

No one is saying or has said Hank and Walt are moral equivalents in terms of what they've done; of course Hank didn't do anything coming close to poisoning an eight year old. What is equivalent between them is the source of their flaws, their choice to take dangerous risks in order to get the credit rather than be impotently humiliated.
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