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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old October 7 2013, 06:22 PM   #91
Christopher
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Boris wrote: View Post
Where did I said that Okuda was dictating the direction of the franchise? I'm talking about the ability to canonize one word onscreen.
"The ability to canonize" implies some kind of overarching authority. It's also a complete misunderstanding of what canon is. Canon is not a seal of approval or a policy declaration. It's simply a descriptive term referring to the original body of work itself as distinct from derivative or licensed creations. Nobody decides what is canon and what isn't. The core creation is the canon by definition. Anything outside it is non-canon by definition. Canon doesn't mean right or real or superior or important. It's just another word for the work itself. When someone, such as Mike Okuda, is employed in the creation of that work, then anything he creates for it is part of the canon. But when he or I or another author creates something for a derivative work such as a tie-in book, then that creation is not part of the canon, because it's not part of the core work. Those are just two ways of saying the same thing.


And if something different happens, then it happens; analysis deals in probabilities, and there is great likelyhood of the TMP ship being canonized as Constitution-class (assuming it wasn't already, in a screen graphic I'm not aware of).
I see no such likelihood. There is no new canon being created in the Prime timeline, nor is there currently any reason to expect there to be. The precedent has been set for creating new Trek in a new, separate timeline, which gives the creators the advantage to be unrestricted by the accumulated baggage of past continuity and reinvent things however they want. It seems likely to me that future Trek creators would embrace the same freedom, either continuing to develop the Abramsverse, establishing another alternate timeline, or just abandoning the "timeline" pretense altogether and straight-up rebooting the franchise. I'd say the odds of any further Prime-universe canon being established are pretty slim.


I'm not trying to be imaginative or creative, since I don't have the legal license for that; tie-in writers get it to a degree, and the series/movie writers to a much greater degree.
What are you talking about? "Legal license?" You think someone needs to give you permission to use your imagination? That is just sad. This is recreation. It's play. You're allowed to have fun with it. I get paid to play with these toys, and that means I have to work within certain limits. But as long as you're not trying to sell something for a profit, as long as you're just exploring a fictional universe for the sake of enjoyment, you're free to imagine whatever you want. That's the purpose of fiction. It's not about imposing control on you and restricting your imagination. That is getting the whole concept of fiction completely, tragically backwards. Fiction is supposed to inspire your imagination, to make you want to think and wonder and create beyond the letter of the page. And nobody's going to stop you or punish you for doing so. Sure, there's only one official version of the universe, more or less, but that's why it can be fun to imagine other possible interpretations, as fanfiction and pastiche authors have been doing for generations. Whether it's "real" or not is gloriously irrelevant, because the "real" version isn't real either. It's all just made-up stories. So just relax and let yourself play with ideas however you want. You're not taking a test. You're not being graded. You don't have to earn anyone's approval. Just have fun.
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Old October 7 2013, 06:57 PM   #92
Boris Skrbic
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Mike Okuda can alter the canon during Remastering; therefore, he is still creating the canon, if only in the tiniest ways. He did replace the Okudagram in "The Naked Now" with one of the TOS ship as opposed to the TMP ship. He did replace the Clare Raymond family tree, thus providing us with a number of canon dates. All that is canon and it was created recently, not in 1987.

And I'm not saying that I need a license for imagination in general, but I do need one to create official, licensed Star Trek. Fan-fiction is only being tolerated by CBS, presumably for good PR. Most writers of original works aren't too thrilled about it. However, reporting on a text and analyzing the text as written, without contributing anything original to it, is as legal as literary analysis. I prefer to remain in that realm.
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Old October 7 2013, 07:17 PM   #93
Christopher
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Boris wrote: View Post
Mike Okuda can alter the canon during Remastering; therefore, he is still creating the canon, if only in the tiniest ways. He did replace the Okudagram in "The Naked Now" with one of the TOS ship as opposed to the TMP ship. He did replace the Clare Raymond family tree, thus providing us with a number of canon dates. All that is canon and it was created recently, not in 1987.
Canon is the broad strokes, not the details. Any long-running canon has contradictions in its details building up over time (is it James R. Kirk or James T. Kirk?), so to argue whether one tiny detail is "canon" or not is applying the label on a far more reductionistic level than is meaningful. The canon is the conjectural reality being depicted in the stories we're told. But any story is filtered through the interpretations of the teller, so different stories about the same reality will have discrepancies between them. Canon is in the whole, not the parts.

And I'm not saying that I need a license for imagination in general, but I do need one to create official, licensed Star Trek.
But as far as I know, you're not doing so. You're a fan making conjectures on a bulletin board. So you're free to imagine whatever you want.


Fan-fiction is only being tolerated by CBS, presumably for good PR. Most writers of original works aren't too thrilled about it. However, reporting on a text and analyzing the text as written, without contributing anything original to it, is as legal as literary analysis. I prefer to remain in that realm.
You're worrying over nothing. If you try to write fiction based on a copyrighted universe (i.e. stories with plots and characters) and market it for profit, that's illegal, because then you're competing directly with the intellectual property. But if you just talk and speculate about the ideas behind show on a public forum with other fans, that's just part of being a fan. It's part of what promotes the show and builds a community of supporters for it.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:26 AM   #94
Robert Comsol
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Boris wrote: View Post
Mike Okuda can alter the canon during Remastering; therefore, he is still creating the canon, if only in the tiniest ways.
Since when is "alteration" the same as "creation"? As a matter of fact alteration is the revision of somebody else's creation (and at the expense of the original creator, and therefore ethically quite debatable).

Bob
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Old October 8 2013, 10:50 AM   #95
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

And then things get even Mudd-ier when subsequent creators go back to the original unaltered version for inspiration:
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Old October 8 2013, 05:46 PM   #96
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

^ Did they really? (Genuinely curious...)
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Old October 8 2013, 08:10 PM   #97
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

There's been no official word, but the shapes are so similar I'd really be surprised if it were a fluke (and the Into Darkness ship is actually upside down in that shot, so the profiles are actually more alike than they seem)
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Old October 8 2013, 08:46 PM   #98
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
There's been no official word, but the shapes are so similar I'd really be surprised if it were a fluke (and the Into Darkness ship is actually upside down in that shot, so the profiles are actually more alike than they seem)
Ok, THAT's pretty cool.
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Old October 9 2013, 04:09 AM   #99
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
And then things get even Mudd-ier when subsequent creators go back to the original unaltered version for inspiration:
This is one of the things I liked about ST:ID.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:28 AM   #100
Robert Comsol
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

IIRC the view of Mudd's ship (left) was a stern view while the ship on the right appears to be watched from the side.

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Old October 9 2013, 09:34 AM   #101
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

It'd be an odd asymmetrical shape if that truly was a rear view. I chalk it up to TOS not showing the perspective properly and say they're the same ship, only with golden glowing shields activated in "Mudd's Woman"

I guess it's quite possible the original artist intended the pointy end to be the front. Or that the glowing shield(?) was obscuring it's true shape. IIRC our first look at a Klingon battlecruiser was a similar golden blob smudge thing.
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Old October 9 2013, 02:14 PM   #102
blssdwlf
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

In the TOS shot, the ship is angled slightly to the left so I don't think it is a direct rear view.
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Old October 9 2013, 02:22 PM   #103
137th Gebirg
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

It's interesting to note that the TOS-R version of this vessel in "Mudd's Women" looks nothing like either of these. It resembles more like a Galaxy Quest N.S.E.A. Protector with TOS-style warp nacelles.
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Old October 13 2013, 12:47 AM   #104
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

To make things even Mudd-ier still, I think that TOS mudd ship was based on some of Jefferies early concepts for the Enterprise?
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Old October 13 2013, 09:40 PM   #105
Praetor
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Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Hmm, I haven't heard that before, but would you be referring to this? I can see it, if so.

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