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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 8 2013, 04:42 PM   #91
CommishSleer
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Re: The Son'a

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The opinions you repeat and repeat (the baku are not trespassers, etc) are based on nothing but hand-waving and rhetoric; as such, they have no worth.
I also believe the Baku and Sona are not trespassing. They were there before the Federation, Romulan, Klingon empires were formed. When did they star trespassing - a hundred years ago, 50 years or when the Federation saw something it liked.
Thats like saying the Australian Aborigines are trespassing on Australia in the British Empire. Aren't we better than that now?

Saying that the Federation is a recognised power is correct but not by all. The Federation has 'rights' in the area relative to the Romulan and Klingon empires because presumably of military and political machination.
So the reason that the Federation 'owns' this and every planet in its area of influence is not because of its high morals but because it has a lot of big guns. And although I hate to side with Picard (in just this one case) - the only thing that differentiates the Federation from the Klingon Empire in this case would be that the Klingons would kill or enslave the Baku where the Federation will just move them but to where? Some less liked planet. Somewhere out of the Federation?
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Old October 8 2013, 06:15 PM   #92
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Re: The Son'a

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
I also believe the Baku and Sona are not trespassing. They were there before the Federation, Romulan, Klingon empires were formed.
The ring planet was the Romulan Empire's territory at the time that the Baku arrived there. This comes from ENT during the augment arc.

The planet and the entire briar patch changed hand a few times eventually becoming federation territory. In the movie, the Enterprise crew knew about conditions in the briar patch (no warp, reduced impulse speeds) so at some point the federation surveyed the patch (or someone did it for them).

While true the federation hadn't formed yet, it's unclear if the Klingon Empire was already in existence.

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Old October 8 2013, 07:27 PM   #93
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
I also believe the Baku and Sona are not trespassing. They were there before the Federation, Romulan, Klingon empires were formed.
The ring planet was the Romulan Empire's territory at the time that the Baku arrived there. This comes from ENT during the augment arc.
Um this is the reveant quote where they discuss the Briar Patch and I don't see anything about the Romulans being mentioned at all.

In fact it sounds like the Klingons weren't that interested in the area at all either.

The Augments wrote:
SOONG: Once we're safely through Klingon space, we'll set a course for these co-ordinates. The Klingons call it Klach D'kel Brakt. I call it the Briar Patch. It's a little catchier, don't you think?
LOKESH: Briar Patch?
SOONG: You should have read more of the books I left for you. The region is flooded with radiation from supernova remnants. The Klingons have never mapped it. There are signs of at least two habitable planets inside the Briar Patch. It's unlikely anyone will find us.
Link: http://www.chakoteya.net/enterprise/82.htm
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Old October 8 2013, 07:57 PM   #94
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Re: The Son'a

I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe it's been covered, so my apologies if so. The Bak'u had about 300 Renaissance Festival villagers, and the Son'a probably even less, so why not just have the Son'a settle somewhere else on the planet and open up and lodge and spa for Federation people to absorb the radiation or whatever it's magical powers were? It makes more sense, and would probably be more effective than bottling the stuff.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:27 PM   #95
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Re: The Son'a

As established in the film, the Son'a were too far gone for the normal levels of ring radiation to help them.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:32 PM   #96
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Re: The Son'a

^^ Thanks. It's been several years since I watched the film. Hopefully several more before I do it again.
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Old October 8 2013, 09:37 PM   #97
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Re: The Son'a

^I...kind of...want to rewatch the film, but I kind of want to do that only to determine whether I actually want to spend money on the soundtrack and kind of to see how well it holds up on DVD on my current television.
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Old October 9 2013, 02:57 AM   #98
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Re: The Son'a

Kirby wrote: View Post
I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe it's been covered, so my apologies if so. The Bak'u had about 300 Renaissance Festival villagers, and the Son'a probably even less, so why not just have the Son'a settle somewhere else on the planet and open up and lodge and spa for Federation people to absorb the radiation or whatever it's magical powers were? It makes more sense, and would probably be more effective than bottling the stuff.
Best idea ever!

And if the Sona are too far gone - well that's their own problem isn't it.
Maybe this time I agree with the PD in not interfering with internal politics of a planet.

If people say go to the planet, will they turn Sona like if they leave? I know Picard and his crew didn't but if they stay for an extended time?
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Old October 9 2013, 11:48 AM   #99
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Re: The Son'a

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne

The law of a state governs the events happening throughout the jurisdiction of the state - even if it's not invoked the second the event took place. AKA even if you do not throw out the trespassers the second they trespassed, they remain with no property rights. That's law 101.
AKA romulan law applies, klingon law applies, etc.
Klingon and Romulan law do not apply in the Federation. Federation law did not even exist when the Baku colony was created. There is no real jurisdiction here.

The romulan/klingon/federation claim is supported by their power and recognised by the other powers in the quadrant. AKA as per the alpha/beta quadrants legal systems, their claim is valid.
Comparing that to the 'moon land' claims of nobodys is yet another straw-men.
This argument is, again, all good and well for Klingons or Romulans. The Federation is not based on power grabs.

The baku were HIDING in the Briar Patch. The situation says so, the movie said so, etc, etc. No adverse possession here. Deal with it.
The Baku were PLAINLY VISIBLE from orbit. This does not meet any reasonable definition of hiding, no matter what the movie says. Deal with it.

Trespassers are evicted, not convicted. Trespassing is generally a civil law matter (apart from a few forms which are crimes).
Trespassers are evicted from undeveloped land all the time.
Forcibly evicted without any warning? From land that isn't anywhere near civilization and has no markings indicated it actually belongs to anyone at all?

The baku, as per property law, have no legal right whatsoever to the planet.
You continue to ignore the fact that the Romulans, Klingons, Federation could easily have known about their presence and that the Baku inhabited and *improved* the planet for three hundred years. Even by our (by fed. standards archaic) laws, their situation is not nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

And our laws are not actually even a legitimate basis for Federation protocols in such a situation. We're talking about an alien species who don't even necessarily know the Romulans exist colonizing a planet which is clearly uninhabited with no indication whatsoever that anyone has claimed it.

And helping BILLIONS by evacuating 600 egoist elitists? The federation has the moral right to evict them, no matter how long you'll play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'.
Whether they are egoist elitists or not does not change what is right. And violating anyone's rights, whether it's 1 person or a billion people is never right, no matter how many people you think you can help.

And it remains extremely suspect for dougherty to claim that these particles would even have such a major significance for the Federation. 24th century medicine is pratically miraculous already. The only major benefit the particles would bring to most people is an extended lifespan, in an age where people live beyond 100 already. You don't get to evict entire civilizations just because you want to stay young longer.


The canon facts state the federation kept the Cestus III colony - aka did not recognise the gorn right to it.
Because the Federation had actually colonized the planet and the Gorn hadn't. Not real politik. Adverse possession.

They also expressly state the planet the baku trespassed on is a federation planet.
That is the federation depicted in these cases - real-politik and all.
That is Dougherty's statement, is it not? A starfleet admiral is not the Federation's deciding authority in these matters.

You obviously want to turn the federation into a suicidal political entity that follows, with religious fanaticism, a set of rules you call 'moral' but are nothing of the sort (not evicting 600 trespassers to help BILLIONS? Really? To think you actually call that 'moral').
Well, in all fairness, your depiction of the federation is encountered in a few episodes/etc - just not relative to the aspects under discussion here.
I'm not turning the Federation into anything. I'm describing the Federation we've seen across hundreds of hours of television. You're inventing your own preferred federation that is never shown on screen.

And ignoring anyone's rights is always wrong. Period.


PS:
You have the right to your opinions, but not to your own facts.
The opinions you repeat and repeat (the baku are not trespassers, etc) are based on nothing but hand-waving and rhetoric; as such, they have no worth.
My opinions are fairly well supported by my arguments. Your opinions continue to be unsupported due to your repeated refusal to actual specify any of the specific reasons why the Baku are so 'obviously' trespassers or to adress in any meaningful way the clear differences between their extraordinary situation and your earth-based rules which were designed in a society where everything is much closer together and there is no possibility of outside parties who have no knowledge whatsoever of the overarching society that enforces the rules.

PS: After seeing the post above, re: ENT's augments episode, I checked that Ep's transcript and the Insurrection transcript for the word 'Romulan'. Unless my computer search function is broken, the word doesn't appear at all in the ENT mention of the Briar Patch and only appears in one conversation in Insurrection, where Picard and Dougherty are discussing the potential for technology to empower thugs.

So, it would seem, unless you have another source for the Briar Patch's provenance, that you are the one inventing your own facts with the repeated claim that the Patch clearly belonged to the Romulans when the Baku settled there.
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Old October 9 2013, 02:11 PM   #100
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne

My opinions are fairly well supported by my arguments.
Your arguments consist of unsupported dictums, straw-men and rhetoric.
For example:
You really need to read up law 101 - the law of a state applies to events happening in its jurisdiction, even if it's not invoked the second the events happen. This law is binding to other states who recognised the first as legitimate - it's irrelevant whether the latter states existed or not when the events took place.

Adverse possession requires, beyond public possession, the exercise of this possession for a period of time (at least decades). Plus, other conditions.
No adverse possession for Cestus III. Or for the Briar patch.

'Insurrection' expressly stated the baku were actively hiding in the Briar patch. Dougherty said the planet is the federation's (and was not contradicted by Picard, who would have contradicted any statement contrary to fact/law). Everyone mentioned how the particles will help BILLIONS.
But, because they destroy your argument, you pretend these canon statements don't exist, yes? And you actually claim your opinion is supported by 'arguments'. lol.

I would go on with listing your so-called 'arguments' were it not obvious you would just come with a different batch of dictums/straw-men/etc.

Whether they are egoist elitists or not does not change what is right. And violating anyone's rights, whether it's 1 person or a billion people is never right, no matter how many people you think you can help.
lol.
You must really hate eminent domain.

As for the rest - there are other opinions. For example - a 'moral code' such as the one you're advocating, that allows for so much suffering and death to occur and calls this 'moral' does NOT deserve the name 'moral'.
It reminds me of those religious fanatics who came with ~'Kill them all. God will know his own' during the dark ages.
Who cares about inflicting unfathomable suffering and death when you can say you followed the 'moral' - or religious - rule to the letter, yes, grendelsbayne?

PS:
Unless my computer search function is broken, the word doesn't appear at all in the ENT mention of the Briar Patch and only appears in one conversation in Insurrection, where Picard and Dougherty are discussing the potential for technology to empower thugs.
Interesting.
For this discussion, irrelevant, though.
From the premise 'every non-suicidal political entity scans the systems it allows to enter within its borders', it follows the briar patch was claimed by an alpha/beta quadrant power before it got trespassed by the baku. Afterwards, it got transferred to the federation - either directly or through a chain of intermediaries.

So, it would seem, unless you have another source for the Briar Patch's provenance, that you are the one inventing your own facts with the repeated claim that the Patch clearly belonged to the Romulans when the Baku settled there.
Really? You actually come with such a statement in a post filled with facts you invented in blatant contradiction to canon? After admitting you barely even remember 'Insurrection' whose minutiae you were discussing?
Your statement is quite amusing - unintentionally, of course.
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Old October 9 2013, 03:41 PM   #101
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Re: The Son'a

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Your arguments consist of unsupported dictums, straw-men and rhetoric.
For example:
You really need to read up law 101 - the law of a state applies to events happening in its jurisdiction, even if it's not invoked the second the events happen. This law is binding to other states who recognised the first as legitimate - it's irrelevant whether the latter states existed or not when the events took place.
This completely ignores many other intricacies of applying law, like statutes of limitation and the fact that states very often refuse to enforce the laws of other states when they disagree with them. To suggest that the Federation would actively rely on an old Romulan charge that was never made, and possibly never even existed, in order to evict an entire planet without any attempt at discussion is plainly absurd.

Adverse possession requires, beyond public possession, the exercise of this possession for a period of time (at least decades). Plus, other conditions.
No adverse possession for Cestus III. Or for the Briar patch.
Yes, you've mentioned this before. You continue to ignore the fact that the Baku possession of the Briar patch planet very clearly *does* meet your time requirements, and you yet again refuse to name any other requirement for adverse possession which they supposedly do not meet.

Whether Cestus III meets those time requirements, I couldn't say. I don't recall if the episode specified how old the colony was.

'Insurrection' expressly stated the baku were actively hiding in the Briar patch.
I am reading the transcript right now. Here's the descriptions I find of the Baku history:

"[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We came here from a solar system on the verge of self-annihilation, ...where technology had created weapons that threatened to destroy all life. A small group of us set off to find a new home, ...a home that would be isolated from the threats of other worlds. ...That was three hundred and nine years ago."

Talking about the benefits of isolation, but no mention of hiding.

"[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We've always known that to survive, we had to remain apart. It hasn't been easy. Many of the young people want to know more about the offland. ...They're attracted to stories of a faster pace of life.[/SIZE][/FONT]"

[/SIZE][/FONT]More about isolation, still nothing about hiding.

And that's it. What do you know? The film does not, in fact, say anything about the Baku hiding.
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.[/SIZE][/FONT]
This is also the only reference at all to the Federation's knowledge of the Baku's origins, making his original disregard (before the discovery of their level of knowledge) for the Prime directive still pretty inexcusable, since the prime directive is about prewarp civilizations, not just prewarp civilizations that still exist on their original homeworld. Something which someone clearly seemed to agree with, considering the Federation efforts at keeping their existence a secret from the Baku.


Dougherty said the planet is the federation's (and was not contradicted by Picard, who would have contradicted any statement contrary to fact/law).
Actually, Picard said the planet is in Federation Space, and Dougherty said 'We have the planet', a fairly ambiguous statement in the context of the film, after which Picard tried a few other tacks of argument before plainly stating: "We are betraying the principles upon which the Federation was founded."[/SIZE][/FONT]

And no one at any point mentioned anything about how the Briar Patch supposedly became Federation space, nor did anything to refute the Baku's statement to have been living on the planet for 309 years: longer than the Federation has existed.

If there are any trespassers in this scenario, it's the Federation.

Everyone mentioned how the particles will help BILLIONS.
But, because they destroy your argument, you pretend these canon statements don't exist, yes? And you actually claim your opinion is supported by 'arguments'. lol.
Dougherty claimed they would 'help' billions. In the process of covering his own ass. His main concern is the particles ability to 'double lifespans', which means your whole song and dance about the great medical benefits is also not in the film. So the Federation is violating its principles solely for the benefit of living a little longer, despite the fact that they already benefit from more or less the maximum natural human lifespan. According to Dougherty, whose word is the only source of a whole lot of the arguments you're making.

He's also the only one who claims the Federation government has any real knowledge of the operation, but he still seems awfully uncertain of that same government's reaction if the Enterprise manages to get a message through.

I would go on with listing your so-called 'arguments' were it not obvious you would just come with a different batch of dictums/straw-men/etc.
And you continue to avoid answering any inconvenient questions. I noticed your post contains no source for your repeatedly claimed 'fact' that the planet belonged to the Klingons and the Romulans before the Federation

Whether they are egoist elitists or not does not change what is right. And violating anyone's rights, whether it's 1 person or a billion people is never right, no matter how many people you think you can help.
lol.
You must really hate eminent domain.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much.

As for the rest - there are other opinions. For example - a 'moral code' such as the one you're advocating, that allows for so much suffering and death to occur and calls this 'moral' does NOT deserve the name 'moral'.
It reminds me of those religious fanatics who came with ~'Kill them all. God will know his own' during the european wars of religion.
I'm well aware there are other opinions. And considering my stated opinion, it should be obvious that I think you have the right to believe in whatever sort of morality you want. I clearly do not agree.

Who cares about inflicting unfathomable suffering and death when you can say you followed the 'moral' - or religious - rule to the letter, yes, grendelsbayne?
Considering the actual description of how Dougherty is going to 'help' billions, this argument has no relevance to this discussion.

Interesting.
For this discussion, irrelevant, though.
From the premise 'every non-suicidal political entity scans the systems it allows to come within its borders' it follows the briar patch was claimed by an alpha/beta quadrant power before it got trespassed by the baku. Afterwards, it got transferred to the federation - either directly or through a chain of intermediaries.
No, it doesn't. This is the epitomy of just making up your own facts to avoid answering the actual question. Space is huge and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that every single piece of it is already claimed by some 'great power'. Which means the planet was entirely unattached when the Baku arrived, making their claim to the planet very clearly superior to the Federation's.

Really? You actually come with such a statement in a post filled with facts you invented in blatant contradiction to canon? After admitting you barely even remember 'Insurrection' whose minutiae you were discussing?
Your statement is quite amusing - unintentionally, of course.
In light of the fact that you have clearly misrepresented a lot of those 'facts' throughout this discussion, I'd suggest you take your own advice and rewatch/reread the film before continuing the discussion.
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Old October 9 2013, 04:27 PM   #102
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Your arguments consist of u
You must really hate eminent domain.
Pretty much.
Actually eminent domain doesn't work that way

the legal definition: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...eminent+domain

and the relevant portion

The government takes private property through condemnation proceedings. Throughout these proceedings, the property owner has the right of due process.
In other words no condemnation proceeding (which the federation did not do by the way) no government taking.

and no Edit_XYZ you don't just get to skip a fracking legal proceeding just because one side thinks their case is air tight seeing as when the prosecution in a murder trial having lots and lots of evidence that the guy did it they still do through the trial, especially since the only out for that is a pore existing agreement (which again the federation did not have).
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Old October 9 2013, 06:16 PM   #103
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Re: The Son'a

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
In fact it sounds like the Klingons weren't that interested in the area at all either.
Well the Klingon Empire was interested enough in the area to fight the Romulan Empire for it, and win it in battle. Prior to 2270 the area was the Romulan's, when they acquired it (and from whom) is unknown.

It's impossible to say if the area was unclaimed when the Baku party arrived, it might have been, or the Romulan could have held it at the time, or another interstellar power perchance.

Would the Baku have expended any effort in ascertaining the exact disposition of the "property" they settled upon? It seems unlikely they would have tried to, it might have advertized their presence.
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Old October 9 2013, 08:51 PM   #104
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Re: The Son'a

TwoJakes wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
In fact it sounds like the Klingons weren't that interested in the area at all either.
Well the Klingon Empire was interested enough in the area to fight the Romulan Empire for it, and win it in battle. Prior to 2270 the area was the Romulan's, when they acquired it (and from whom) is unknown.
And yet in the 2150s it was in the general area of Klingon space with no mention of Romulans at all. (and don't try the humans wouldn't know much about the Romulans defense because it was a Klingon database on a captured Klingon ship)

It's impossible to say if the area was unclaimed when the Baku party arrived, it might have been, or the Romulan could have held it at the time, or another interstellar power perchance.
The lack of cloaked mine fields or other anything else the Romulans would use to show they control an area indicates otherwise not to mention again the lack of mentioning the Romulans in the Klingon database from "The Augments"

Would the Baku have expended any effort in ascertaining the exact disposition of the "property" they settled upon? It seems unlikely they would have tried to, it might have advertized their presence.
I'm pretty sure they would know if an area belonged to the Romulans the very minute their ship exploded from a cloaked mine or when a Romulan ship decloaked to shoot them considering how territory conscious they've been in the past.

Not to mention I'm pretty sure the Klingons would have for the third time mentioned a Romulan claim in the area in their database entry.

Instead all we get is something that sounds like a lack of interest on the Klingons part in the general area, considering how much of a pain in the ass holding the area would be it seems likely they might not have been that interested.

Hell they probably only fought the Romulans for it so they didn't decide to go after something they did care about plus the possibility of the Romulans using the area to sneak attack them.
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Old October 10 2013, 02:53 AM   #105
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
A deleted scene in INS which involved Riker and Troi in the library; Riker says something to the extent that the Son'a came to the Federation for assistance because the planet is in Fed space. So legally the Federation would have jurisdiction over the planet. This could explain the collaborate agreement between the Admiral Doughtery and Ru'afo. The Son'a filed all the legal paperwork and went through the proper channels seeking Federation help. The Federation would've gained technology and the methods to replicate the metaphasic particles of the planet for collaborating with the Son'a.

On the surface it seems legit. The Son'a however neglected to mention that the 600 occupants of the planet were their relatives.
Legally, the Federation cannot have jurisdiction over an inhabited planet that is not a member world of the Federation. Except in cases of war/conquered territory, or maybe some sort of special treaty situation, of course.

The very existence of the Prime Directive is an indication of how seriously the Federation is supposed to take the idea of every people's right to their own sovereignty, regardless of how technologically developed they are. To suggest that they would then be perfectly ok with a legal construction giving them 'jurisdiction' over planets that are not already inhabited, because their inhabitants are advanced enough have interstellar relations makes no sense.

Another problem here is the fact that the Federation doesn't even know up front that the Baku aren't native, which means Dougherty is conspiring to basically the most massive violation of the prime directive ever shown. In other words, blatantly illegal.
The problem with the Prime Directive Argument is, couldn't the Son'a have used it to keep the Federation from doing anything to stop the Son'a from kicking the Ba'ku off the planet? If the Son'a are really Ba'ku, why couldn't they have used that as a basis to lay claim to the planet and then keep the Federation out by saying its an internal Ba'ku matter.

It seems like the Son'a could have won by just telling the truth, which makes them pretty ineffective villains.
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